Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MrPotatoHead]

As the combustion aims to become more diesel like (in terms or air fuel ratios not the ignition i am speaking of here) more air is not a bad thing. As long as temps are controlled. I actually think FIA should increase the displacement size to two litres to enable even leaner burn using slightly lower pressure ratios.

I think combustion stability will become a problem long before they would be able to reach levels as lean as you are talking.
You cannot just introduce another 20% or air and expect everything to just be ok - unless it's already designed to work there of course.

[Craigy]

As the combustion aims to become more diesel like (in terms or air fuel ratios not the ignition i am speaking of here) more air is not a bad thing. As long as temps are controlled. I actually think FIA should increase the displacement size to two litres to enable even leaner burn using slightly lower pressure ratios.

An aside: If the engine formula was for swept capacity of between 1600cm² and 2000cm², what do you think the manufacturers would go for, all other things being equal?

I'm assuming here we're not talking about elastic conrods.

[gofast182]

They should require that every manufacturer has to publish their design after 12 months.

That's an excellent idea. Suppliers would still be able to protect their current-year enhancements but it would have benefits for fans, media/broadcasters, struggling teams, and maybe even other automakers not in F1.

[Joseki]

Honda F1 set to use technology from their Airplanes division.

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/kunisaw ... -00074212/

Google Translated:

Since its entry in 2015, Honda F1 continued bad news but bright information came in for the first time! It may greatly evolve toward the end of the game. Apparently it seems to introduce Honda Jet's technical know-how. As you know, the engine mounted on the Honda jet is designed & developed by Wako of Honda Institute of Technology.

Honda Technical Research Institute's main posting received the sluggishness of Honda F1 "If we come this far, we will use total technology, let's have all the technology we can possibly have thought that jet engine technology can not be diverted?" In general, the internal combustion engine where the piston moves up and down, and the turbine engine are considered to be different things. That is why I have not involved so far.

In other words, it is said that it has been driven to that point. I was surprised to see the information and drawings of the F1 Power Unit to the development team of the jet engine in the background, "Wow?" Although details are unknown, precision management seems to be quite different from jet engine. The jet engine is more precise.

In the aircraft industry all parts are made with precision different from cars. Scrap from the aluminum plate such as the structural member of the main wing. For example, if the main wing is 28 m, it has to be cut off from the aluminum plate of 28 m or more. It is impossible to add it. When I saw the automobile production engineer, I was doing incredible things.

The engine is the same. The accuracy required of the jet engine is said to be more than the F1 engine. When I think about it, "Burner 4" used in B777, etc. There is no vibration at all though the fan with 2m 85 cm also rotates at high speed. Furthermore, it is used in the range from the outside temperature of 50 degrees to minus 60 degrees. And it will not be allowed to break.

By examining the power unit of Honda F1 with the concept of "It is the highest level of automobile technology, it seems that it was far from aircraft level". The timing of when Honda jet technology is used as a power unit at any point is unknown, but the Hungarian test after the Hungarian Grand Prix was awesome.

It is said that it will introduce a power unit called "spec 4" from the Belgian GP at the earliest, but this is definitely introducing the concept of Honda Jet. The vibrations that had plagued since the opening began to decline sharply, and it seems that it has come to be able to produce the power as designed. Have you seen more power up toward the end?

If Speck 4 is introduced to the Belgian Grand Prix to be held on August 27, if you fight well without breaking, you can think that it will get better.

[ZakB]

Honda F1 set to use technology from their Airplanes division.

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/kunisaw ... -00074212/

Google Translated:

Since its entry in 2015, Honda F1 continued bad news but bright information came in for the first time! It may greatly evolve toward the end of the game. Apparently it seems to introduce Honda Jet's technical know-how. As you know, the engine mounted on the Honda jet is designed & developed by Wako of Honda Institute of Technology.

Honda Technical Research Institute's main posting received the sluggishness of Honda F1 "If we come this far, we will use total technology, let's have all the technology we can possibly have thought that jet engine technology can not be diverted?" In general, the internal combustion engine where the piston moves up and down, and the turbine engine are considered to be different things. That is why I have not involved so far.

In other words, it is said that it has been driven to that point. I was surprised to see the information and drawings of the F1 Power Unit to the development team of the jet engine in the background, "Wow?" Although details are unknown, precision management seems to be quite different from jet engine. The jet engine is more precise.

In the aircraft industry all parts are made with precision different from cars. Scrap from the aluminum plate such as the structural member of the main wing. For example, if the main wing is 28 m, it has to be cut off from the aluminum plate of 28 m or more. It is impossible to add it. When I saw the automobile production engineer, I was doing incredible things.

The engine is the same. The accuracy required of the jet engine is said to be more than the F1 engine. When I think about it, "Burner 4" used in B777, etc. There is no vibration at all though the fan with 2m 85 cm also rotates at high speed. Furthermore, it is used in the range from the outside temperature of 50 degrees to minus 60 degrees. And it will not be allowed to break.

By examining the power unit of Honda F1 with the concept of "It is the highest level of automobile technology, it seems that it was far from aircraft level". The timing of when Honda jet technology is used as a power unit at any point is unknown, but the Hungarian test after the Hungarian Grand Prix was awesome.

It is said that it will introduce a power unit called "spec 4" from the Belgian GP at the earliest, but this is definitely introducing the concept of Honda Jet. The vibrations that had plagued since the opening began to decline sharply, and it seems that it has come to be able to produce the power as designed. Have you seen more power up toward the end?

If Speck 4 is introduced to the Belgian Grand Prix to be held on August 27, if you fight well without breaking, you can think that it will get better.

This could explain why Lando Norris was quicker than Alonso and Vandoorne on his firs test and the claim that they can overtake Renault. Would be nice to see something really great from Honda.

[etusch]

Is it doable or legal to use jet engine technology to keep Turbo at needed speed without using electric energy from battary during braking? If it is allowed they also can use this when they need high pressure at qual.
And also I wonder if it can be used at f1 mazda's sparkless engine tech? They are very near to use it at road cars

[MrPotatoHead]

The Honda Jet thing sounds like marketing fluff or a misunderstanding to me.
The HF120 Honda Jet engine is a joint venture with GE (the first engines were made by GE actually) and other than the bearing technology there isn't really anything that would be carried over to an F1 engine. There is nothing magical about the HF120.

I've seen the internals of the HF120 engine in person - I wish I could say more but NDAs and all that.

[godlameroso]

If they are using jet engine technology it probably has to do with attenuating the resonance from the long turbo mgu-h shaft.

[MrPotatoHead]

If they are using jet engine technology it probably has to do with attenuating the resonance from the long turbo mgu-h shaft.

I doubt it.
This is handled in a jet engine by having a balanced assembly and sufficient bearings to support the shaft.

[godlameroso]

If they are using jet engine technology it probably has to do with attenuating the resonance from the long turbo mgu-h shaft.

I doubt it.
This is handled in a jet engine by having a balanced assembly and sufficient bearings to support the shaft.

That's what I mean, imbalance in the shaft coupled with other resonant frequencies in the drivetrain is what's causing the bearing destroying vibrations. Perhaps it's a matter of shifting the resonant frequency on the shaft so that it's not being magnified by engine or drivetrain vibrations in the desired range.

[MrPotatoHead]

If they are using jet engine technology it probably has to do with attenuating the resonance from the long turbo mgu-h shaft.

I doubt it.
This is handled in a jet engine by having a balanced assembly and sufficient bearings to support the shaft.

That's what I mean, imbalance in the shaft coupled with other resonant frequencies in the drivetrain is what's causing the bearing destroying vibrations. Perhaps it's a matter of shifting the resonant frequency on the shaft so that it's not being magnified by engine or drivetrain vibrations in the desired range.

If the MGU-H shaft isn't balanced out of the box then they need to start right there. I seriously doubt that is the case.

[godlameroso]

I doubt it.
This is handled in a jet engine by having a balanced assembly and sufficient bearings to support the shaft.

That's what I mean, imbalance in the shaft coupled with other resonant frequencies in the drivetrain is what's causing the bearing destroying vibrations. Perhaps it's a matter of shifting the resonant frequency on the shaft so that it's not being magnified by engine or drivetrain vibrations in the desired range.

If the MGU-H shaft isn't balanced out of the box then they need to start right there. I seriously doubt that is the case.

I'm not saying it's not balanced, but perhaps it becomes unbalanced by resonating with certain frequencies in the engine/drivetrain.

In any case, if anyone is curious here's a cutaway of the HF120

[MrPotatoHead]

The HF120 is designed for 5,000 hours between maintenance. At this point the Honda MGU-H seems good for about 5 hours

[kfrantzios]

The article mentions precision engineering. Could they use the advanced technology of the airplane division (if applicable) to reduce tolerances in various parts of the engine?

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[dren]

I doubt it.
This is handled in a jet engine by having a balanced assembly and sufficient bearings to support the shaft.

That's what I mean, imbalance in the shaft coupled with other resonant frequencies in the drivetrain is what's causing the bearing destroying vibrations. Perhaps it's a matter of shifting the resonant frequency on the shaft so that it's not being magnified by engine or drivetrain vibrations in the desired range.

If the MGU-H shaft isn't balanced out of the box then they need to start right there. I seriously doubt that is the case.

There is no way any team is running anything with a static imbalance that is meant to rotate.