Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Zynerji]

I interpreted that it was more about the precision of the manufacturing tools than the parts of the engine. If F1 tools that Honda was using were at .0001 tolerance, but the aircraft tools from the Jet side were .000001, what he said makes sense.

[amho]

Honda jet engine is a turbofan engine so it has a compressor and turbine so I guess engineers of Jet department might be helpful in design of TC for ICE and I also think about old rumors of Honda axial flow compressor.
Considering thermal stress/strain in turbo fan jet engine is very important so I guess that Jet engineers are going to help in this area too as I remember Mr.wazari mentioned about unseen stresses in design of TC-mgh-h.

[PlatinumZealot]

While there could be aerospace principles they applied to the piston engine, don't forget there are other high-RPM rotating parts in the power units. Think of the MGU-H and the bearings for one...

From what I gathered, they might have used some sort of high speed dynamic balancing that might have come from the aero industry. He said that static and low speed balancing weren't cutting it.

My thoughts exactly.

Ideally you would want to balance turbo/mguh at operating speed, I doubt they can achieve that even with the mystery jet engine tech, however the higher they can go the better. They might have implemented better practices too, gas turbine guys are known to go to extremes when it comes to individually balancing parts, indexing and re-balancing the assemblies, etc.

The statement about 'vibration free' jet engine is either poor translation or complete B/S. I suspect same goes for tolerances being tighter than on F1 engines.

Yes. The tolerances are much tighter. Ask Riff-Raff.

[63l8qrrfy6]

From what I gathered, they might have used some sort of high speed dynamic balancing that might have come from the aero industry. He said that static and low speed balancing weren't cutting it.

My thoughts exactly.

Ideally you would want to balance turbo/mguh at operating speed, I doubt they can achieve that even with the mystery jet engine tech, however the higher they can go the better. They might have implemented better practices too, gas turbine guys are known to go to extremes when it comes to individually balancing parts, indexing and re-balancing the assemblies, etc.

The statement about 'vibration free' jet engine is either poor translation or complete B/S. I suspect same goes for tolerances being tighter than on F1 engines.

Yes. The tolerances are much tighter. Ask Riff-Raff.

I would be really surprised if for example the straightness tolerance of a 1+ meter long turbo fan shaft would be smaller than that of a high performance turbo shaft. Or if the surface profile tolerance on a 1 meter diameter gas turbine compressor blade was tighter than the one on a 100 mm diameter turbo compressor wheel.

Maybe what they mean to say is that tolerances are tight relative to the size of the part - which is likely - but I would never believe that the absolute tolerances are tighter.

[PlatinumZealot]

The F1 parts have a smaller budget and shorter time limits. Formula 1 is entertainment. You only need to be beating your competition and no more. It warrant thats your tolerances (and hence machine time!) need not be as extrememe as that of a jet engine... There was nothing to be gained from being more than 2 seconds faster than your rivals... Nothing to be gained from having an engine last 10,000km... When the rules only need to to last 3000km. So this goes for the conventional engine as honda knew it. Conventional F1 tolerances for the conventional engine parts. Only thing is the long shaft turbo charger is nothing convential at all and the old tolerances that thy have been using just werent cutting it. They need better design tools and better machining tools AND knowledge base to make parts to those tighter tolerances and closer clearances.
It could be possible that Mercedes are using jet engine level tolerances as well... We just don't know.

[wuzak]

Honda jet engine is a turbofan engine so it has a compressor and turbine so I guess engineers of Jet department might be helpful in design of TC for ICE and I also think about old rumors of Honda axial flow compressor.
Considering thermal stress/strain in turbo fan jet engine is very important so I guess that Jet engineers are going to help in this area too as I remember Mr.wazari mentioned about unseen stresses in design of TC-mgh-h.

The Honda Jet has a multi-stage axial turbine, multi-stage axial LP compressor plus a HP centrifugal compressor.

I doubt any of it is useful, except the centrifugal compressor.

[jz11]

The F1 parts have a smaller budget and shorter time limits. Formula 1 is entertainment. You only need to be beating your competition and no more. It warrant thats your tolerances (and hence machine time!) need not be as extrememe as that of a jet engine... There was nothing to be gained from being more than 2 seconds faster than your rivals... Nothing to be gained from having an engine last 10,000km... When the rules only need to to last 3000km. So this goes for the conventional engine as honda knew it. Conventional F1 tolerances for the conventional engine parts. Only thing is the long shaft turbo charger is nothing convential at all and the old tolerances that thy have been using just werent cutting it. They need better design tools and better machining tools AND knowledge base to make parts to those tighter tolerances and closer clearances.
It could be possible that Mercedes are using jet engine level tolerances as well... We just don't know.

this is going to be sort of an off topic rant, mods feel free to remove it if you feel it is out of place

Your logic contradicts few simple design rules, there is absolutely everything to be gained when you're 2 seconds faster than your rivals, and same for your engine lasting 10k instead of required 3k, because that means you can gain even more by shaving off of the components of your 10k engine to make it into a 3k engine while maintaining reliability, and that allows you to extend your lead to 2+ seconds - and if you have any strategical thinking at all, you will sand bag and show that you're only 0,5 seconds faster

Intentionally designing and manufacturing parts with loose tolerances (when you can do better) sacrificing performance in any sport is a neglect, there is no other way around it, and I would like to think that no one is actually doing that, I can't even think of any part on an F1 car that can be sort of neglected, everything counts for the lap time, and not just that, if you're a designer working on the bodywork, and you see people on the "wheel nut" team or the "head rest cushion" team slacking and saying something like - naah, it doesn't matter, it will never happen, let's go and grab some coffee after the extra long lunch break, well, then look at what happened in last few races where valuable points were lost to things that might have been improved upon (just as example, not blaming anything on anyone) - and this mentality is a cancer that spreads and destroys not just racing teams, but whole companies and even countries.

This all being said, I recognize that aero related engineering has its own challenges, but saying something like - oh we're far superior and we will come to fix your childish sand box level of a project called hybrid turbocharged 1,6l petrol engine that produces nearly 1000hp while being fuel efficient to extreme, then that person doesn't seem to know challenges involved in this design when compared to axial flow turbine engine, where performance is secondary to reliability, performance is still important, but you don't sacrifice reliability to it - this is what surprised me in that translated statement, the message between the lines was not - we will come to aid our fellow Honda engineers, but more like - ok, we will come and fix things because our work is much more challenging and this child's play project of yours

[etusch]

It hopes to be in a position to introduce 'spec 4' in one of the early races after the summer break, but will not do so until it is confident in the update.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -introduce

[63l8qrrfy6]

The F1 parts have a smaller budget and shorter time limits. Formula 1 is entertainment. You only need to be beating your competition and no more. It warrant thats your tolerances (and hence machine time!) need not be as extrememe as that of a jet engine... There was nothing to be gained from being more than 2 seconds faster than your rivals... Nothing to be gained from having an engine last 10,000km... When the rules only need to to last 3000km. So this goes for the conventional engine as honda knew it. Conventional F1 tolerances for the conventional engine parts. Only thing is the long shaft turbo charger is nothing convential at all and the old tolerances that thy have been using just werent cutting it. They need better design tools and better machining tools AND knowledge base to make parts to those tighter tolerances and closer clearances.
It could be possible that Mercedes are using jet engine level tolerances as well... We just don't know.

Keep in mind that many of the suppliers that do F1 parts also manufacture aerospace components - on the very same machine tools.

When it comes to drawing a part no sane designer will think 'sure this dimension is important but I want it to be cheap so losing 0.0005s per lap is not the end of the world'. They just go for the tightest achievable tolerance (not necessarily repeatable as long as the amount of scrapped parts is acceptable). If it can be measured on a CMM then it goes on the drawing.

Unless you're proposing that Honda still use manual lathes, dial gauges and sine bars.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=HPD]
A few days ago, I wrote that Honda F1 will introduce Honda jet technology.
......The use environment of the aircraft engine is far more tougher than the racing engine.
.....And if it can not withstand 9G far beyond side G of F1 it will break. A high revolution object becomes 9 times heavier and hangs on the shaft, and gyroscopic effect comes out as well. Liquids to be circulated should not withstand 9G ~ minus 1G........[/quote]

afaik Honda jet powered planes are certified for public transport and so need to be only 3g capable
the +9g -1g plane apparently mentioned would anyway be entirely useless and exists only in the author's imagination

translational/bending vibration and torsional vibration are not the same, and instability is different again
the whirling instability of high rpm shafts is essentially independent of balance and so-called 'g' loads
active anti-whirling exists at testbench level but surely would not be certifiable in aviation

at high speeds the 'g' loads are maximal but the gyroscopic loads are minimal - for both aviation and F1 (eg Eau Rouge etc)
because the gyroscopic loads are proportional to angular velocity, which is maximal at low speed (eg Loew's hairpin etc)

regarding tolerancing - the designer will anyway tend to call for small tolerances to cover his own position

[Joseki]

It hopes to be in a position to introduce 'spec 4' in one of the early races after the summer break, but will not do so until it is confident in the update.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -introduce

Is spec 4 the final spec 3 or is the real deal?

[63l8qrrfy6]

translational/bending vibration and torsional vibration are not the same, and instability is different again
the whirling instability of high rpm shafts is essentially independent of balance and so-called 'g' loads
active anti-whirling exists at testbench level but surely would not be certifiable in aviation

The undamped natural frequencies of the forward and reverse whirling modes are indeed independent of balance, however the forced response is VERY dependent as the first order excitation of the unbalance usually has the highest amplitude.

To be more concise, the two critical speeds of a whirling mode are independent of balance while the bending loads at resonance depend on damping and excitation force (unbalance , blade passing, gear mesh, bearing stiffness, etc)

[godlameroso]

The F1 parts have a smaller budget and shorter time limits. Formula 1 is entertainment. You only need to be beating your competition and no more. It warrant thats your tolerances (and hence machine time!) need not be as extrememe as that of a jet engine... There was nothing to be gained from being more than 2 seconds faster than your rivals... Nothing to be gained from having an engine last 10,000km... When the rules only need to to last 3000km. So this goes for the conventional engine as honda knew it. Conventional F1 tolerances for the conventional engine parts. Only thing is the long shaft turbo charger is nothing convential at all and the old tolerances that thy have been using just werent cutting it. They need better design tools and better machining tools AND knowledge base to make parts to those tighter tolerances and closer clearances.
It could be possible that Mercedes are using jet engine level tolerances as well... We just don't know.

Next year they'll need to last 3,500km, so it's starting to get to that level.

[mclaren111]

Hasegawa:

Honda plans to continue with the same concept next year and has several research programmes focused on 2018 running alongside its normal development for this year.

Glad to hear. We really need to hit the ground running in testing already for 2018.

[FW17]

Will it be better to have a common casing for the compressor, mgu and turbine?