Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[harjan]

are you guys sure that they have no TJI on the engine right now?

[godlameroso]

People have very short memories on here.

TJI was found to not work correctly in Dec 2016 so they had to run it detuned(richer) at the beginning of the season.

Vibrations wasn't found until first in car test(Feb).

Two separate problems.

So the combustion issue was causing excessive knocking/detonation, and the vibration problem was damaging the MGU-H? I understand they've made progress with the second, but what about the first?

[godlameroso]

are you guys sure that they have no TJI on the engine right now?

Honda never used TJI, that's a Ferrari thing, they did have a lean burn combustion process, and that's as much as we know.

[Joseki]

So the combustion issue was causing excessive knocking/detonation, and the vibration problem was damaging the MGU-H? I understand they've made progress with the second, but what about the first?

Wasn't the original plan to have a new (functional) combustion concept already this year? First at Spa then probably postponed until October (and hopefully not postponed again to 2018).

[godlameroso]

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

[wuzak]

http://i.imgur.com/NJjF4ku.jpg

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

I would like to see what that graph looked like after the British GP.

[wuzak]

Having one common housing would mean that it has to be horizontally split through the middle of the bearing bores which is a big no no for high speed turbo machinery.

Secondly the turbine housing end has to be inconel - that would dictate that the whole housing is inconel which is denser than steel and almost 3 times denser than aluminium.

The vibration benefits are questionable to say the least.

Very good points regarding materials and construction requirements.

[MrPotatoHead]

The Turbine housing is likely to be inconel.
The center MGU housing will be either stainless steel or Aluminium.
The Compressor housing will be Aluminium.

[daren_p]

http://i.imgur.com/NJjF4ku.jpg

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

Basically those charts are saying Honda is a actually worse off now compared to the competition vs at the start of the season? I find that a little hard to believe, especially with all the vibration issues they had at the start of the year causing them to run at basically a detuned state.

[diffuser]

If those numbers are right ...There must be a bigger difference on how much longer the Merc can power the MGU-K that the Ferrari's over a single lap. Merc's PU seems to have a fairly large gap on the PU tracks.

[restless]

http://i.imgur.com/NJjF4ku.jpg

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

Can you explain how this graph could be real at all?!
We know transmission ratio can be changed ONCE per season.
So, how all cars get different speeds with same gear ratio? (ok Ferrari changed it, but we heard nothing from Honda)
From graphs it lokks Honda got 50hp at lower speed (270km/h) and almost nothing as top power
But these revs/shift points look bogus

PS: Ok, different drag , different tracks... but then how can they calculate power, without knowing drag...
And I'd epect Honda to be 50hp closer at peak power too, given how far away they were in Australia

[zac510]

I don't see how Mercedes can keep pushing up the boost pressure either, when ~12 months or so ago they were already crazily lean on AFR and worried about noxious emissions from the lean burn. When I heard that I presumed gains of the next few years would come in other areas of the engine - friction, temperatures, etc - rather than continually increasing boost pressure.

[Joseki]

http://i.imgur.com/NJjF4ku.jpg

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

I read the blog post (and others too) and I don't those numbers are accurate at all: they are based on the assumption that every manufacturer works around the flow meter pumping more than 100 kg/h.

They may be close to reality but that would be more due to sheer luck than by a good technical calculation.

[wuzak]

I don't see how Mercedes can keep pushing up the boost pressure either, when ~12 months or so ago they were already crazily lean on AFR and worried about noxious emissions from the lean burn. When I heard that I presumed gains of the next few years would come in other areas of the engine - friction, temperatures, etc - rather than continually increasing boost pressure.

I believe Ferrari dropped their boost this year in order to get more out of the MGUH.

[godlameroso]

http://i.imgur.com/NJjF4ku.jpg

For your entertainment.

Looks like Honda went from ~958hp to ~970
Renault 980 - 994
Mercedes 990 - 1010
Ferrari 983 - 1006

I don't expect this to be very accurate, but if it is the differences don't seem that great, and if Honda's updates materialize they could become competitive as a 30hp improvement would put them at 1,000hp which would be a big achievement for this year, in my opinion.

Can you explain how this graph could be real at all?!
We know transmission ratio can be changed ONCE per season.
So, how all cars get different speeds with same gear ratio? (ok Ferrari changed it, but we heard nothing from Honda)
From graphs it lokks Honda got 50hp at lower speed (270km/h) and almost nothing as top power
But these revs/shift points look bogus

PS: Ok, different drag , different tracks... but then how can they calculate power, without knowing drag...
And I'd epect Honda to be 50hp closer at peak power too, given how far away they were in Australia

I don't have to explain anything, 1 not my graph, 2 it says it's an approximation ie made up, 3 I don't think they're accurate myself.