Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
30hp? That's quite an optimistic number not sure I agree it's possible. Such numbers would bring just over half a second at Spa or a similar deficit to the front runners as Hungary. And would put the McLaren at or just under a second from the front at a favorable circuit like Singapore or COTA.
I think people need to dampen down expectations for Spa, yes Honda will probably introduce new parts and various upgrades. But I wouldn't expect to see a massive leap in horse power from the off, it'll be a gradual build up over the course of the practise sessions, qualifying and the race so Honda can validate the data from the dyno to the data produced on the track (hence why Honda is cautious about giving numbers out). Assuming there are no issues with the updates, we'll probably see Alonso pushing it to see how quick he can go for a short stint before turning things back down again.
No point saying "This will give the Honda PU 30hp" unless Honda have fixed the problems (vibrations etc) with the PU and can therefore push forward on performance.
Sorry guys, but reading this thread or at least last pages someone should add speculation thread at the end of the title
I know it´s the summer break, but I can´t remind last useful post in this thread
You want to be administrator...admit it!
No way, I wouldn´t enjoy being an administrator of any board as then you´re not a free member, but an english board? Have you read my posts?
Speculation is normal in any thread and esspecialy in anything regarding Honda and esspecialy in this current no performance and no clear next year status for them.
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."
30hp? That's quite an optimistic number not sure I agree it's possible. Such numbers would bring just over half a second at Spa or a similar deficit to the front runners as Hungary. And would put the McLaren at or just under a second from the front at a favorable circuit like Singapore or COTA.
I think people need to dampen down expectations for Spa, yes Honda will probably introduce new parts and various upgrades. But I wouldn't expect to see a massive leap in horse power from the off, it'll be a gradual build up over the course of the practise sessions, qualifying and the race so Honda can validate the data from the dyno to the data produced on the track (hence why Honda is cautious about giving numbers out). Assuming there are no issues with the updates, we'll probably see Alonso pushing it to see how quick he can go for a short stint before turning things back down again.
No point saying "This will give the Honda PU 30hp" unless Honda have fixed the problems (vibrations etc) with the PU and can therefore push forward on performance.
A very demotivating aspect IMO of current PU is they´re so extremelly complex mappings play a crucial role, and they need some mileage to perfectly adjust to the real world job as they´ve only run on dynos before, and that means we don´t see the upgrade improvement when they´re first used, but some GPs after, and that makes F1 a lot more difficult to follow for us fans
That means here in Spa we could probably see some improvement, but maybe it will not come from Spa upgrade alone, but from Austria upgrade wich now should be perfectly integrated into the PU. Heck maybe Hungary result was not exclusively thanks to the chassis as most of us are assuming...
(...) would put the McLaren at or just under a second from the front at a favorable circuit like Singapore or COTA.
Assuming Honda's competition is standing still and will not make any progress.
If Honda stops caring about grid penalties then they can catch up (hopefully) with the rest of the manufacturers. For example, Ferrari can't afford certain upgrades in the next few races without taking penalties and Renault seems to be on a plateau with their development. Yet we are always comparing Honda to the Mercedes PU (their reliability allows them a better chance to upgrade their PU).
Its not about penalties, but about "upgrade ready to deploy"
Changes must be tested & verified. Rushing changes was exactly the reason for the f*** up at start of the season - Honda pushed too many unverified changes - freezed development and started testing too late, so were unable to change course when --- hit the fan
Assume for a moment there is a modest increase for Spa. Due to the nature of the track I think the best we can hope for is them holding position. If the upgrade offers no appreciable power we may even see them give up a few spots until they can refine the update to extract some more power. Still an achievement to hold position at a power track but I can't wait for the big update this fall.
30hp? That's quite an optimistic number not sure I agree it's possible. Such numbers would bring just over half a second at Spa or a similar deficit to the front runners as Hungary. And would put the McLaren at or just under a second from the front at a favorable circuit like Singapore or COTA.
I think people need to dampen down expectations for Spa, yes Honda will probably introduce new parts and various upgrades. But I wouldn't expect to see a massive leap in horse power from the off, it'll be a gradual build up over the course of the practise sessions, qualifying and the race so Honda can validate the data from the dyno to the data produced on the track (hence why Honda is cautious about giving numbers out). Assuming there are no issues with the updates, we'll probably see Alonso pushing it to see how quick he can go for a short stint before turning things back down again.
No point saying "This will give the Honda PU 30hp" unless Honda have fixed the problems (vibrations etc) with the PU and can therefore push forward on performance.
A very demotivating aspect IMO of current PU is they´re so extremelly complex mappings play a crucial role, and they need some mileage to perfectly adjust to the real world job as they´ve only run on dynos before, and that means we don´t see the upgrade improvement when they´re first used, but some GPs after, and that makes F1 a lot more difficult to follow for us fans
That means here in Spa we could probably see some improvement, but maybe it will not come from Spa upgrade alone, but from Austria upgrade wich now should be perfectly integrated into the PU. Heck maybe Hungary result was not exclusively thanks to the chassis as most of us are assuming...
Do you think aero is any different? Do they not bring a package and then learn to tune over a series of races?
Or suspension, or brakes?
Surely it's the nature of F1 that they are trying to optimise across a very large number of variables only a very few of which we can see.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus
That means here in Spa we could probably see some improvement, but maybe it will not come from Spa upgrade alone, but from Austria upgrade wich now should be perfectly integrated into the PU. Heck maybe Hungary result was not exclusively thanks to the chassis as most of us are assuming...
New TC worth a reported 15hp with penalties?
New ancillaries that will bring 10hp without penalties?
New engine mapping and engine modes worth an additional 5hp, but better ECU management of engine will bring reliability improvements?
Would it be safe to say that all of this will bring the car much closer to the front, however they will have to take more penalties?
Im now hopeful for McLaren and Honda, they are undoubtable to me as the most improved for the season. I think if they were to get a podium, regardless of if its a freak race or not, it will be seen as a positive and worth it. I do think that this is the only way that Hondas management won't pull the plug.
Would it be safe to say that Alonso and Vandoorne will take a new complete power unit for Spa and Monza as they will be weak at both, with a new spec 4 coming along for Malaysia to be used at Suzuka? Im thinking that the honda Power Units will have as many as 12 in the pool for some components before the end of the year.
Assume for a moment there is a modest increase for Spa. Due to the nature of the track I think the best we can hope for is them holding position. If the upgrade offers no appreciable power we may even see them give up a few spots until they can refine the update to extract some more power. Still an achievement to hold position at a power track but I can't wait for the big update this fall.
There might well be a modest increase, but given all the checks and tweaks Honda and McLaren will likely have to carry out at Spa, it's probably premature to be talking about horse power in Spa from the updates (barring a surprise improvement nobody is expecting).
Getting a PU to work efficiently across it's constituent parts alongside the software is what delivers the horse power/speed in the end. Until Honda have resolved the issues that are stopping them from achieving that, I find talking about HP to be a bit of a moot subject (for me personally). Don't get me wrong I'm excited about Spec 3 and Spec 4, It's just going to be a while before we know where Honda actually is. Hopefully they'll be in a position to push for performance, rather than chase reliability woes once the upgrades are complete and they've had time to make the necessary adjustments to get them working together in harmony.
Hopefully the Spa updates will be more or less smooth sailing for Honda and McLaren.
Assume for a moment there is a modest increase for Spa. Due to the nature of the track I think the best we can hope for is them holding position. If the upgrade offers no appreciable power we may even see them give up a few spots until they can refine the update to extract some more power. Still an achievement to hold position at a power track but I can't wait for the big update this fall.
There might well be a modest increase, but given all the checks and tweaks Honda and McLaren will likely have to carry out at Spa, it's probably premature to be talking about horse power in Spa from the updates (barring a surprise improvement nobody is expecting).
Getting a PU to work efficiently across it's constituent parts alongside the software is what delivers the horse power/speed in the end. Until Honda have resolved the issues that are stopping them from achieving that, I find talking about HP to be a bit of a moot subject (for me personally). Don't get me wrong I'm excited about Spec 3 and Spec 4, It's just going to be a while before we know where Honda actually is. Hopefully they'll be in a position to push for performance, rather than chase reliability woes once the upgrades are complete and they've had time to make the necessary adjustments to get them working together in harmony.
Hopefully the Spa updates will be more or less smooth sailing for Honda and McLaren.
I hope that the time set by Lando Norris was on the new spec engine/TC+MGU and that they have done some good testing already. I'd like to think they may hit the ground running in Spa but who knows.
Do folks really think that spec 5 is going to bring another 40BHP? Seems like this would bring them close to the front runners and ahead of Renault.
New TC worth a reported 15hp with penalties?
New ancillaries that will bring 10hp without penalties?
New engine mapping and engine modes worth an additional 5hp, but better ECU management of engine will bring reliability improvements?
Would it be safe to say that all of this will bring the car much closer to the front, however they will have to take more penalties?
Im now hopeful for McLaren and Honda, they are undoubtable to me as the most improved for the season. I think if they were to get a podium, regardless of if its a freak race or not, it will be seen as a positive and worth it. I do think that this is the only way that Hondas management won't pull the plug.
Would it be safe to say that Alonso and Vandoorne will take a new complete power unit for Spa and Monza as they will be weak at both, with a new spec 4 coming along for Malaysia to be used at Suzuka? Im thinking that the honda Power Units will have as many as 12 in the pool for some components before the end of the year.
Assume for a moment there is a modest increase for Spa. Due to the nature of the track I think the best we can hope for is them holding position. If the upgrade offers no appreciable power we may even see them give up a few spots until they can refine the update to extract some more power. Still an achievement to hold position at a power track but I can't wait for the big update this fall.
There might well be a modest increase, but given all the checks and tweaks Honda and McLaren will likely have to carry out at Spa, it's probably premature to be talking about horse power in Spa from the updates (barring a surprise improvement nobody is expecting).
Getting a PU to work efficiently across it's constituent parts alongside the software is what delivers the horse power/speed in the end. Until Honda have resolved the issues that are stopping them from achieving that, I find talking about HP to be a bit of a moot subject (for me personally). Don't get me wrong I'm excited about Spec 3 and Spec 4, It's just going to be a while before we know where Honda actually is. Hopefully they'll be in a position to push for performance, rather than chase reliability woes once the upgrades are complete and they've had time to make the necessary adjustments to get them working together in harmony.
Hopefully the Spa updates will be more or less smooth sailing for Honda and McLaren.
I hope that the time set by Lando Norris was on the new spec engine/TC+MGU and that they have done some good testing already. I'd like to think they may hit the ground running in Spa but who knows.
Do folks really think that spec 5 is going to bring another 40BHP? Seems like this would bring them close to the front runners and ahead of Renault.
That's the goal, Renault will also bring some updates. Honda's target is Renault, which would be mighty impressive if they achieve that (I doubt it).
why not ? They will have to, if they can't beat Merc or Renault - or Ferrari for that matter, then what's the use in participating? They need to not only reach the same power level of the Merc engine, they need to even beat it.
They know this and though things went down the wrong path somehow early on, that doesn't mean that the theory behind it can't still get there.
They decided to change the entire engine concept exactly because of this last year or so, which saw this engine being brand new and essentially Honda doing it all over again from day 1. No way on earth they wouldn't have done that if they dont believe they can achieve what is neccesary - beating Merc in power.
You could very well assume that last year's engine would not be able to have been developed enough to beat Mercedes engine which offcourse is still developing and upgrading too. So that question could go for last year's engine and i'm inclined to answer that in that case, they wouldn't have made it. Hence we have a different engine with all the starting problems but which essentially still adheres to a potentially valid formula. Their development path is going better and better and offcourse a limit/cieling will be reached at some point, but the big question is where is that point and just how far are they right now?
Funny enough, the question might not be that it's questionable whether another update will bring another 40hp, after the one coming up now, but just how much more relative upgrades does Honda have in the pipeline, meaning, let's go all out positive and say sure, this upgrade will bring 30hp, then the 5th one will bring another 40hp [making it a step up of 70hp since Hungary] but there might even be another upgrade which would give them another 30hp.
offcourse one must also not forget that upgrades dont solely consist of bringing more power, as if it's a need for speed unlockable.
a lot is also down to driveability, fuel economy and reliability.
For example, next engine upgrade would be something that brings 30hp power, but not only that, but also improves fuel economy by a significant margin. Which would mean that in comparison, the current spec has that same fuel improvement, which means that they can now run that engine - without the additional 30hp added too - on more capacity [let's say hungary had a specification which had a theoretic 800hp but highly fuel consuming so they had to run it at 785 hp to finish the race. the fuel economy improvement then resolves that excessive fuel consuming problem and now they no longer need to de-tune the engine to 785 hp but can do a full race distance with the engine on it's fullest, meaning the full 800hp capacity is available. thus, they gain a couple of tenths.]
add to that that not only is the fuel problem solved, but the package also includes an upgrade where the heads at honda found a way to improve the cylinder heads [ just a total random example ] which would actually give the engine itself another 30hp of more power.
so then the net efficiency is that they not just get 30hp more with the new spec upgrade, but that this upgrade 'package' also includes that fuel problem correction that you get a net boost of 45 hp over the engine ran before that upgrade.
in other words, that engine now has 830 hp vs the race before the previous spec had 785. that's a big difference.
if in the meantime there is also a simulation which says that if they replace the piston design or the valve design or whatever with a bit different one, it'll bring them another 40hp. - i know it's not that simple, but let's just keep it easy to paint a picture - and now you get to a total of 870 hp [ICE only] where you, a couple of races/specs ago, only had 785. a 85 hp total gain.
that package also completely resolved the vibration issues of before so now you can mount that originally intended super-ERS you secretly developed but couldnt use because the vibrations murdered the cr*p out of its life, and you have an ERS that brings you a whopping 300hp additionally.
yes i'm exegerating.
the point is, it's like a domino effect. once , there was a vibration issue that wasnt calculated in before. that vibration destroyed the hybrid electric part of the engine which saw the need of replacing that with something that could take more vibration at the cost of a lot of power and reliablity still. now you've also downtuned the engine by far to minimize that vibration - it's not gone, it's effect is just less. like having unbalanced wheels and not hitting the 100kph mark which keeps the steering wheel [ and wheels offcourse] from vibrating on the highway. the problem is still there, but you don't notice it if you keep under 100kph.
finally you have fixed the vibration issue, start running again, and see that it is gone. you still havent brought back that hybrid electric part that initially got shattered, so you do that too and boom, you propel yourself a good amount forward.
so a really long story short;
i actually wouldn't be suprised to see a 30ph or 40hp increase.
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