Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Andres125sx]

Alonso: “Engine problem. Engine problem.”
Team: “Yeah let’s box to retire the car.”



Why don't people asks the same questions about Verstappen? He had DNFs all season and Ricciardo never.

Give up man, people enjoy thinking Alonso is some sort of narcissist who can´t be a professional... despite history

[henry]

No on can deploy for entire lap at max power (120 kw) and wont be able to for as long as the rules stay as they are. It's very obvious they can't do it from how different acceleration is at different parts of tracks.

can I ask which of the numbers I used you disagree with? I think they have more than enough electrical energy to achieve full deployment for WOT over a full lap. I didn't include the charging they can do under part throttle which would provide even more energy.

Do you have some examples of the variation in acceleration rates?

On his pole lap In china for example, hamilton did 328 kph on the start/finish straight and he did 329 kph on the back straight, which is 3 times the length. Very clearly they do not deploy at the same rates for those 2 stretches do they? There's only one reason why that would be the case and that is the fact they can't do it at max output over the whole lap.

http://i.imgur.com/zvPWQqE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VYWjeuR.jpg

You may be right. They may have chosen not to deploy full sustained power all the way down the back straight.

However there is another possibility. The normal wind direction in Shanghai in April is ESE. The average wind velocity is 18 kph. So the Mercedes may have been experiencing a slight tailwind on the start straight and a rather higher headwind on the back straight. So the peak wind speeds may have been 325 vs 335, which is a power difference of around 50 kw.

Those numbers are only for illustration. I don't have the actual wind direction and strengths at the circuit and anyway they may well be modified by the grandstands.

[J.A.W.]

Alonso: “Engine problem. Engine problem.”
Team: “Yeah let’s box to retire the car.”



Why don't people asks the same questions about Verstappen? He had DNFs all season and Ricciardo never.

Give up man, people enjoy thinking Alonso is some sort of narcissist who can´t be a professional... despite history

"...History."
..of 'hissy fits'?
Or like..
'No way, he'd never choose to do that, & not now, since he never has' ?

I recall a 'highly strung' motorcycle World Champion who was once.. so annoyed by his machine..
..that he held it WOT in neutral.. revving it out,' til it failed catastrophically.. John Kocinski..

[henry]

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than was possible with KERS, the ‘bolt-on’ recovery system ERS replaced in 2014. That means drivers have access to an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

I also doubt it.

That quote is wrong.

A maximum of 4 mJ can go from the ES to the MGU-K. There is no limit to the number of J that can go from the MGU-H to the MGU-K. So if the MGU-H makes 60 kw the ES drains at 60 kw and can do so for 66 seconds.

[Andres125sx]

Alonso: “Engine problem. Engine problem.”
Team: “Yeah let’s box to retire the car.”



Why don't people asks the same questions about Verstappen? He had DNFs all season and Ricciardo never.

Give up man, people enjoy thinking Alonso is some sort of narcissist who can´t be a professional... despite history

"...History."
..of 'hissy fits'?
Or like..
'No way, he'd never choose to do that, & not now, since he never has' ?

I recall a 'highly strung' motorcycle World Champion who was once.. so annoyed by his machine..
..that he held it WOT in neutral.. revving it out,' til it failed catastrophically.. John Kocinski..

Can you please point me to the relevance of what Kocinski did when we´re talking about Alonso? Heck that´s not even F1

[J.A.W.]

Give up man, people enjoy thinking Alonso is some sort of narcissist who can´t be a professional... despite history

"...History."
..of 'hissy fits'?
Or like..
'No way, he'd never choose to do that, & not now, since he never has' ?

I recall a 'highly strung' motorcycle World Champion who was once.. so annoyed by his machine..
..that he held it WOT in neutral.. revving it out,' til it failed catastrophically.. John Kocinski..

Can you please point me to the relevance of what Kocinski did when we´re talking about Alonso? Heck that´s not even F1

Your post wasn't clear.. hence my question marks.. which idea is it - that you are suggesting?

& Kocinski actually won a World Championship for Honda, something Alonso is, sadly, at no risk of doing..

[henry]

I'm completely against GPS tuning to these items.

Hybrid deployment should be directly related to throttle deployment, not a track awareness via technology.

How is this kind of control scheme NOT considered a driver aid?

What would happen in reverse? What if it gave way too much in the wrong place?

The power deployment should be under the drivers control 100% of the time. Not a computer.

The technical regulations state that the PU is 100% controlled by the throttle. Article 5.6 is very clear, it's only about where the energy comes from!

I don't think the regs are clear at all, or at least the interpretation is varied a lot.

WOT can correspond to up to 4 distinct power outputs all under software control. They acknowledge some of this by requiring the rain light to flash when the power to the wheels goes down even though the driver is still demanding full torque.

[PhillipM]

That quote is wrong.

A maximum of 4 mJ can go from the ES to the MGU-K. There is no limit to the number of J that can go from the MGU-H to the MGU-K. So if the MGU-H makes 60 kw the ES drains at 60 kw and can do so for 66 seconds.

But that's not full power mode, that's self sustaining mode.

[ZakB]

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than was possible with KERS, the ‘bolt-on’ recovery system ERS replaced in 2014. That means drivers have access to an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

I also doubt it.

That quote is wrong.

A maximum of 4 mJ can go from the ES to the MGU-K. There is no limit to the number of J that can go from the MGU-H to the MGU-K. So if the MGU-H makes 60 kw the ES drains at 60 kw and can do so for 66 seconds.

Tell that to guys that run the official F1 site.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... stems.html

[Juzh]

can I ask which of the numbers I used you disagree with? I think they have more than enough electrical energy to achieve full deployment for WOT over a full lap. I didn't include the charging they can do under part throttle which would provide even more energy.

Do you have some examples of the variation in acceleration rates?

On his pole lap In china for example, hamilton did 328 kph on the start/finish straight and he did 329 kph on the back straight, which is 3 times the length. Very clearly they do not deploy at the same rates for those 2 stretches do they? There's only one reason why that would be the case and that is the fact they can't do it at max output over the whole lap.

http://i.imgur.com/zvPWQqE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VYWjeuR.jpg

You may be right. They may have chosen not to deploy full sustained power all the way down the back straight.

However there is another possibility. The normal wind direction in Shanghai in April is ESE. The average wind velocity is 18 kph. So the Mercedes may have been experiencing a slight tailwind on the start straight and a rather higher headwind on the back straight. So the peak wind speeds may have been 325 vs 335, which is a power difference of around 50 kw.

Those numbers are only for illustration. I don't have the actual wind direction and strengths at the circuit and anyway they may well be modified by the grandstands.

This is happening on most tracks in all conditions, wind direction is irrelevant here. I say most tracks because on some tracks they do in fact have enough energy for max deployment over the lap (thinking monaco specifically).

[henry]

I also doubt it.

That quote is wrong.

A maximum of 4 mJ can go from the ES to the MGU-K. There is no limit to the number of J that can go from the MGU-H to the MGU-K. So if the MGU-H makes 60 kw the ES drains at 60 kw and can do so for 66 seconds.

Tell that to guys that run the official F1 site.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... stems.html

Anyone can be wrong. In this case it's whoever wrote that piece for formula1.com.

To be pedantic they are right that the 4 mJ in the energy store would drive the MGU-K for 33 seconds if it did so alone and unaided but it doesn't , the MGU-H makes a contribution.

This is why Honda keep tweaking the turbocharger, the more efficient you make both the turbine and compressor and the better matched they are the more the MGU-H contributes and the longer 120 kw is available.

[FrukostScones]

Alonso: “Engine problem. Engine problem.”
Team: “Yeah let’s box to retire the car.”



Why don't people asks the same questions about Verstappen? He had DNFs all season and Ricciardo never.

Give up man, people enjoy thinking Alonso is some sort of narcissist who can´t be a professional... despite history

sometimes the truth is the most enjoyable construct.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13148 ... nso-engine

[godlameroso]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

[ZakB]

* Engine penalty for Alonso in Monza.
* According to BBC the engine is 80BHP behind the customer engines of Williams and Mercedes.
* Latest update worth around 0,1 sec in Spa.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/41071953

It's painful to watch.
https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/video ... 958748654/

[Dimi]

It's painful to watch.
https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/video ... 958748654/

It looks like FI and Haas can carry 10+kph more at the corner exit