Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

I want to ask a question. We know Honda don't like long stroke. I wonder that is there any advantage of long stroke on exhaust gass pressure? For turbo engines which one is better ? Longer stroke or shorter.

[GoranF1]

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

[maguetox]

Re

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

A couple of things that caught my attention:
They say that Stoffel tested the 4.0 in Spa and Alonso is going to do the same. I always tough that Stoffel was testing the 3.6. I believe what Alonso is going to use or test in Monza is close to a real 4.0 than what Stoffel tested in Spa.

They say that Red Bull is looking the evolution of Honda to see if is possible to use it in 2018. I think is too late for that and that is not a real possibility.

I will take this information with a grain of salt.

[loner]

i for one took Hasegawa ahead of Renault comment as a subtle message to RedBull

[Pedrohf]

Still, this is only useful on qualifying mode, or racing mode

What other modes are there?

if your harvest strategy is flawed / ERS gets full.

What?

Even pretending the pulse is 12bar, its only a brief pressure pulse, its not enough to drive 50% of the compressor.

There are 6 pulses per engine cycle all contributing, you're neglecting that there's roughly 400kw of potential energy in the exhaust.

And as soon it reaches a plenum (junction with other pipes, turbo, or wastegate), it dissipates or is reflected back (negative pressure) to the valve.

Only partially, depending on the obstruction to the pressure wave.

And always, always, if the wastegate is not enough to route all the gases around the turbine, you will have backpressure, even if the turbine is powered only by this pulses.
Turbines act as a buffer for this pulses.

The turbine is powered by the pressure increase from combustion exhaust gases, and the MGU-H. I'm going to assume English isn't your first language, as to why you're acting like an ass, maybe you had a bad upbringing, maybe you're just a troll.

Qualifiying mode drains the ERS for a single quick lap, race mode keeps the balance between harvest and deployment.

You have no idea about turbine thermodynamics, 3 pages ago, you thought that you had 80kW pumping loss to drive a 80kW compressor, and suggested to drive the compressor from the MGU-K instead.
You have absolutely no idea about the working of this engines, you keep posting dumb BS and you should quit posting, because it seriously damage the topics and reputation of this forum.

No, my written english is not good, sorry for that.

[Pedrohf]

IMO, two main issues still remain, ERS system management and ICE fuel efficiency.

How come they still have ERS management issues? Shouldn't they have good experience already after three years?

Until recently they missed the whole ERS concept. MGUH has to directly power the MGUK and Honda admitted they didn't plan for that with 2015 PU! Plus they tried an axial flow compressor that was a complete flop. Too much catching up to do!!!

If this (skipping the MGU-H to MGH-K path) is true, Honda is doomed and should quit F1.

[bigblue]

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

Yeah, right ! He didn't start working for them until relatively recently, did he (especially in terms of engine lead times) ?

[NL_Fer]

How come they still have ERS management issues? Shouldn't they have good experience already after three years?

Until recently they missed the whole ERS concept. MGUH has to directly power the MGUK and Honda admitted they didn't plan for that with 2015 PU! Plus they tried an axial flow compressor that was a complete flop. Too much catching up to do!!!

If this (skipping the MGU-H to MGH-K path) is true, Honda is doomed and should quit F1.

Kind of true, Honda completly underestimated the energy that could be harvested from the exhaust and focused to much on the 2/4MJ limit. Because of that they made a relative small turbo/turbine and choose for the turbo-in-v concept.

In 2016 they tried to correct the problem, but they turbo-in-v could not be made large enough to harvest the full potential energy from the exhaust. They only got that right in the 2017 engine.

[GoranF1]

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

Yeah, right ! He didn't start working for them until relatively recently, did he (especially in terms of engine lead times) ?

He started on 23.3 2017 in 7.56h.....how the hell do i know when he started i didnt wright the god damn article.

[Redragon]

Re

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

A couple of things that caught my attention:
They say that Stoffel tested the 4.0 in Spa and Alonso is going to do the same. I always tough that Stoffel was testing the 3.6. I believe what Alonso is going to use or test in Monza is close to a real 4.0 than what Stoffel tested in Spa.

They say that Red Bull is looking the evolution of Honda to see if is possible to use it in 2018. I think is too late for that and that is not a real possibility.

I will take this information with a grain of salt.

Well if it is too late for Red Bull to use the Honda engine why it is not too late for Mclaren to use the Renault engine? All the cards still open. But I believe Honda will continue with Mclaren next year as Renault with Redbull and Tororosso

[godlameroso]

Qualifiying mode drains the ERS for a single quick lap, race mode keeps the balance between harvest and deployment.

You have no idea about turbine thermodynamics, 3 pages ago, you thought that you had 80kW pumping loss to drive a 80kW compressor, and suggested to drive the compressor from the MGU-K instead.
You have absolutely no idea about the working of this engines, you keep posting dumb BS and you should quit posting, because it seriously damage the topics and reputation of this forum.

No, my written english is not good, sorry for that.

I think you're confused, driving a compressor via a turbine costs energy(pumping losses etc), just like it costs energy to drive a supercharger(parasitic draw on the crankshaft) The turbo on these engines takes roughly between 70-90kW of power to run at full boost, that power has to come from somewhere, if you extract it from the exhaust stream it's creating a load on the turbine, and in turn the crank, if it's coming from the K, it's creating a load on the crankshaft as well only directly. If you get the power from the ES, guess what, it's still putting a load on the crankshaft because you're either getting it from the H or the K. By harvesting from the H, it puts a load on the turbine which in turn increases pumping losses in the crankshaft due to increased backpressure. If you get it from the K, same thing, you're putting a load on the crankshaft to generate electrical energy in the K to send to the ES, and then the H.

If Honda improved combustion they'd be better able to exploit different harvesting or deployment strategies, they wouldn't have to make as many compromises with the ERS.

[ZakB]

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

Yeah, right ! He didn't start working for them until relatively recently, did he (especially in terms of engine lead times) ?

Has been working with Honda for months. I expect that it's too little, too late. McLaren wants to ditch Honda and I don't blame them, it's gonna get ugly.

[ArcticWolfie]

This article is saying spec 4 is the Illien engine.(or version..he will be in charge from 2018)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/mundial-f ... so-6252143

Yeah, right ! He didn't start working for them until relatively recently, did he (especially in terms of engine lead times) ?

Has been working with Honda for months. I expect that it's too little, too late. McLaren wants to ditch Honda and I don't blame them, it's gonna get ugly.

So RBR goes Honda and McLaren goes with Renault? and then finally Honda introduces some monster engine and blows everyone away next year

[godlameroso]

Qualifiying mode drains the ERS for a single quick lap, race mode keeps the balance between harvest and deployment.

You have no idea about turbine thermodynamics, 3 pages ago, you thought that you had 80kW pumping loss to drive a 80kW compressor, and suggested to drive the compressor from the MGU-K instead.
You have absolutely no idea about the working of this engines, you keep posting dumb BS and you should quit posting, because it seriously damage the topics and reputation of this forum.

No, my written english is not good, sorry for that.

I think you're confused, driving a compressor via a turbine costs energy(pumping losses etc), just like it costs energy to drive a supercharger(parasitic draw on the crankshaft) The turbo on these engines takes roughly between 70-90kW of power to run at full boost, that power has to come from somewhere, if you extract it from the exhaust stream it's creating a load on the turbine, and in turn the crank, if it's coming from the K, it's creating a load on the crankshaft as well only directly. If you get the power from the ES, guess what, it's still putting a load on the crankshaft because you're either getting it from the H or the K. By harvesting from the H, it puts a load on the turbine which in turn increases pumping losses in the crankshaft due to increased backpressure. If you get it from the K, same thing, you're putting a load on the crankshaft to generate electrical energy in the K to send to the ES, and then the H.

If Honda improved combustion they'd be better able to exploit different harvesting or deployment strategies, they wouldn't have to make as many compromises with the ERS.

This is ridiculous. Go away and read some basic ICE engineering books.

You're entitled to your opinion, it's a stupid opinion but you're entitled to it. If you actually knew me, or what I do, you'd realize how foolish you sound, so I can't take your ignorance personal. In fact you still haven't demonstrated where I have said "BS" all I see are childish accusations, a typical troll. Mods please delete all these posts as they're not constructive to the topic.

[ZakB]

Yeah, right ! He didn't start working for them until relatively recently, did he (especially in terms of engine lead times) ?

Has been working with Honda for months. I expect that it's too little, too late. McLaren wants to ditch Honda and I don't blame them, it's gonna get ugly.

So RBR goes Honda and McLaren goes with Renault? and then finally Honda introduces some monster engine and blows everyone away next year

Just like they did in the last two years.