Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[mclaren111]

I am sorry to be the one to put on damper on this but really - how can so many of you see improvement where there is none ? Sure there is the odd glimpse of performance but objectively they had 3 DNFs in 2 races after the break (as well as the FP hiccups). At the end of the day the race result is the only meaningful measure and this statistic is just as grim as it was at the start of the season.

As for the switch to Renault - the thing to consider is that Honda have not frozen their design for this year - they are still going through a slow iterative process whereas Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari have already shifted resources towards next season's engine. Even if Honda manages to come close to Renault (which is unlikely) by the end of this year chances are that next season they will be again miles behind.

To be fair any decision would be a bit of a gamble for Mclaren - as they say in chess - in a bad position any move is a bad move. (well except maybe for sacking Alonso, but this is not the right thread for this discussion)

Hasegawa said in an interview not long ago that they have started working on the 2018 engine in May already to avoid
the 2017 start of season problems.

By Steven De Groote on 21 Jul 2017, 14:51

Same concept for 2018

Having basically started from zero for the 2017 engine, Honda is sticking with its current concept with a split turbine and compressor - alike Mercedes - to recover the lost ground. The engine maker is certain that the concept is fine, having gone through numerous evaluations and consultant advice on the back of a sub optimal design in 2015 and 2016.

"We don't stop developing, we need to keep updating," said Hasegawa. "Of course the performance and results are the most important things but it's all learning for the future too.

"Compared to last year we needed to modify the engine concept, but next year we will keep the same concept.

"It's good that we can use the same concept because this year's development and improvement is directly connected to next year. So that means we don't need to stop the current development, and from that point of view we have already started next year's design."

[Pany]

cazzate - bullshit

[godlameroso]

They've certainly had a step forward, it seems like the extra performance is there. They'll easily be in the top ten the next two rounds. Suzuka may be challenging as it may be the debut of spec 4.

I still have every reason to believe Honda can make a good power unit. The last two years don't matter, they started from scratch this year, the new concept has a lot of potential, and it's only a matter of time before it's realized.

Honda leaving would be bad, not just for the sport, but for McLaren as well. I hope we see McLaren Honda in 2018 as well. When people see them doing 1:18's in testing next year no one will complain, well maybe the competition.

[Macklaren]

Does anyone know what were the least number of manufacturers in a F1 season? Were those season/s any good from an entertainment point of view? How many seasons did they run with such a low number of manufacturers? Just asking because 2021 is a long way off.

F1 has had fewer engine suppliers than this before but they have almost always had a non-works "independent" supplier which is the most crucial thing missing today

[JonoNic]

Does anyone know what were the least number of manufacturers in a F1 season? Were those season/s any good from an entertainment point of view? How many seasons did they run with such a low number of manufacturers? Just asking because 2021 is a long way off.

F1 has had fewer engine suppliers than this before but they have almost always had a non-works "independent" supplier which is the most crucial thing missing today

F1 has had fewer engine suppliers than this before but they have almost always had a non-works "independent" supplier which is the most crucial thing missingp today

Yeah. There's no such thing as a dark horse in F1 anymore. Brawn GP was the last. Let's hope that the Honda engine stays in F1

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

[bigblue]

As someone suggested previously, the "2017 McLaren F1 Team - Honda" thread may be the best place to discuss and debate all the "team" news ?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25527

The only recent engine news I've seen was via user hasika on the autosport forum
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20652 ... try8086285

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... 2851&tt=-1
http://members.f1-life.net/race/58118/

·The MGU-K shaft broken in qualifying session,but it could be changed without penalty.
·Honda asked FIA if they could change it throughout the night,but FIA refused.It needs 5 hours to change the shaft when its sunday,so they made a hard decision to change the Power Unit(hasegawa).
·Stoffel suffered an engine issue again in the race.The issue is still under investigation.But from the data,it seems like the MGU-K issue happend again(hasegawa).
·If its the shaft,it means the MGU-K can stil be used in the following races.
·Turn 5.Its the same place when the MGU-K shaft brokend.So its suspected that when the car bumped in the curbs,then some torsion came to the Power Unit(hasegawa).
·The 2 MGU-K issue are both happend in Stoffel's Power Unit.Alonso didnt have the problem.So its naturely to think if some parts from a specific lot number is not good.
·Anyway,it would not effected the fact Stoffel suffered the MGU-K 2 times this weekend.
·Stoffel started from 18th postion,and he went to 10th before he retired.His race pace is very good.Felt very very sorry for Stoffel.Alonso suffered a gearbox issue,he was in trouble when shift up.The team retired the car to provent a possilbe damage to the gearbox(hasegawa).

Turn 5, twice !?

[Dipesh1995]

As someone suggested previously, the "2017 McLaren F1 Team - Honda" thread may be the best place to discuss and debate all the "team" news ?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25527

The only recent engine news I've seen was via user hasika on the autosport forum
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20652 ... try8086285

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... 2851&tt=-1
http://members.f1-life.net/race/58118/

·The MGU-K shaft broken in qualifying session,but it could be changed without penalty.
·Honda asked FIA if they could change it throughout the night,but FIA refused.It needs 5 hours to change the shaft when its sunday,so they made a hard decision to change the Power Unit(hasegawa).
·Stoffel suffered an engine issue again in the race.The issue is still under investigation.But from the data,it seems like the MGU-K issue happend again(hasegawa).
·If its the shaft,it means the MGU-K can stil be used in the following races.
·Turn 5.Its the same place when the MGU-K shaft brokend.So its suspected that when the car bumped in the curbs,then some torsion came to the Power Unit(hasegawa).
·The 2 MGU-K issue are both happend in Stoffel's Power Unit.Alonso didnt have the problem.So its naturely to think if some parts from a specific lot number is not good.
·Anyway,it would not effected the fact Stoffel suffered the MGU-K 2 times this weekend.
·Stoffel started from 18th postion,and he went to 10th before he retired.His race pace is very good.Felt very very sorry for Stoffel.Alonso suffered a gearbox issue,he was in trouble when shift up.The team retired the car to provent a possilbe damage to the gearbox(hasegawa).

Turn 5, twice !?

If it was the shaft that failed, would they not have designed the shaft with some sort of adequate safety factor integrated into it especially if it’s going to experience extensive torsion. I know a greater safety factor means a greater mass and this is F1 after all but to finish first, first you must finish.

[63l8qrrfy6]

To me this sounds like they have not fixed their torsional vibration issues from earlier in the season.
I don't think Alonso's gearbox problems and SVD's quill shaft failures are unrelated.

On aggressive downshifts there is a big driveline acceleration spike as the engine is spun up. The MGUK is spinning 3 times faster than the crank hence it's effective inertia is over 10 times its actual inertia. Torque is inertia times the massive angular acceleration - all this taken on a very small diameter of a quill shaft. And then there is the torque of the harvesting MGUK too but I suspect this is nothing compared to the dynamic torque.

Similarly, on harsh upshifts, the torque caused by the inertia sync between engine and gearbox eventually finds its way into the MGUK shaft.

2x broken shafts and one rough gearbox hardly look like a coincidence even though they were on different cars.

Edit: As a side note I've been told that no current transient dyno can properly simulate the shift torque spike in an F1 engine.

[NL_Fer]

The split turbo, is their any photomaterial taken of it and any know problems caused by it? Mercedes said it was so hard to make it work, did Honda succeed in creating it?

[loner]

Honda leaving would be bad, not just for the sport, but for McLaren as well. I hope we see McLaren Honda in 2018 as well. When people see them doing 1:18's in testing next year no one will complain, well maybe the competition.

i hope it will be Williams-Honda or Redbull-Honda
if Mclaren battling Redbull in Abu Dhabi GP 2017 i can see Redbull terminate their deal with Renault immediately
its not like it was raining trophies over Mclaren before Honda, if Zak Brown see its not good to be patience with Honda
good for him and his team
there is a major update before the end of year...
BTW all failures in Monza was due to Mclaren not Honda it seems... gearbox mgu-k shaft

[loner]

Well, there is a new "Spec 4" that is "less meddled" built and being tested. I am biased but I think it is a more robust, efficient PU with only a slight weight disadvantage. With all this supposed turmoil, who knows when or if we will see it this year. The overall architecture is not that different from the current spec PU and the "delays" have already occurred so I don't think it will be another "clean slate" scenario like it was from 2016 to 2017

i think its safe to say the current PU is a prototype for what will Honda offer later on.. heavier 4 kg with ironing the bugs and releasing more power i can see it realy surpassing Renault and the picture is getting more clearer now..

[Goosey]

Do McLaren honestly believe that they can beat Red Bull with the same power unit? I'm sorry, but this most probably isn't going to happen.

With Renault they can be third or fourth fastest team and never be world champions.

Stick with Honda and they have works status and the potential to become world champions. Have Toro Rossi as a development team / partner and create something great.

If Alonso doesn't like it, tell him to go to Williams and win !

Plenty of other fast young drivers like Sainz, Verstappen etc.

[ZakB]

Do McLaren honestly believe that they can beat Red Bull with the same power unit? I'm sorry, but this most probably isn't going to happen.

With Renault they can be third or fourth fastest team and never be world champions.

Stick with Honda and they have works status and the potential to become world champions. Have Toro Rossi as a development team / partner and create something great.

If Alonso doesn't like it, tell him to go to Williams and win !

Plenty of other fast young drivers like Sainz, Verstappen etc.

McLaren can compete with the top guys, which is exactly the reason why Ferrari and Mercedes aren't willing to provide them with engines. Stop acting like Red Bull are the gods of F1, because their car was a --- stain at testing as well. The data from McLaren suggests they are capable of battling with Red Bull and that's why they are going to switch to Renault. People need to stop underestimating McLaren.

[GhostF1]

Zak was pretty honest in his interview, as usual, with Brundle and that.
He said they know what the issues with the Honda PU are and there is a couple of them, but they are consistent, there isn't issues scattered all over it, he also believes they can get on top of it but it's a timing thing now, whether they believe they can get it right quickly or not.

He also mentioned something I hadn't heard before... In response to the the question of what the main issue is with the PU:
"It's friction, there's a lot of friction in the engine and as we know, friction is not what you want, that's costing us power, but they are trying very hard to get that sorted and they have developments in the pipeline so we will have to see what they have come up with and take a decision from there".

Interesting point. That's likely the root cause of the vibration issues. If Spec 4 delivers new pistons, CC, heads whatever other internal changes are rumoured, that really could lift their game. Gut feeling here, but I think Spec 4 could rear it's head in Malaysia, ahead of a hopefully stronger showing in Japan (an important home race for Honda and their pride) than last year.

[Jolle]

To me this sounds like they have not fixed their torsional vibration issues from earlier in the season.
I don't think Alonso's gearbox problems and SVD's quill shaft failures are unrelated.

On aggressive downshifts there is a big driveline acceleration spike as the engine is spun up. The MGUK is spinning 3 times faster than the crank hence it's effective inertia is over 10 times its actual inertia. Torque is inertia times the massive angular acceleration - all this taken on a very small diameter of a quill shaft. And then there is the torque of the harvesting MGUK too but I suspect this is nothing compared to the dynamic torque.

Similarly, on harsh upshifts, the torque caused by the inertia sync between engine and gearbox eventually finds its way into the MGUK shaft.

2x broken shafts and one rough gearbox hardly look like a coincidence even though they were on different cars.

Edit: As a side note I've been told that no current transient dyno can properly simulate the shift torque spike in an F1 engine.

I would imagine that somekind of dynamic dyno, with a complete rear end on the car (ice, GB, wheels on a rolling road, rear suspension and loads) isn’t too hard to build and program. Some clever engineers would have that running in weeks.