2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Alonso Fan]

Anyone wondering why red bull is interested in Honda?
It is supposed to be the worst engine in history and it will never be competitive. Why Red Bull wants Honda to work with Toro Rosso?

I would not be surprised if Ilmor is talking to Red Bull about the Honda engines.

Red bull is only interested in Honda because they don't have to run the engine straight away. They'd never sign a Honda deal with themselves for next year, only Toro Rosso . If mclaren had a junior team then they'd get the Honda engine. Simple

[Joseki]

Wow, a lot of passion and heated arguments. Let's see what happens. So much speculation aided by journalist's rubbish.

I will admit I think many times the finger pointing is one-sided and Honda (for good reason) never says anything. This weekend; gearbox problem (who makes the gearbox?), 2 MGU-K shaft failures (McLaren or Honda designed and specified part?). At Spa, low DF package doesn't work, have to revert to medium DF package (McLaren or Honda issue?). Yes majority of McLaren-Honda's failure to perform is on Honda's end but not 100%.

Problem solving usually requires adressing the big problems first, then the smaller ones later. If Honda made a killer engine people would go for McLaren's throat everytime they lose a race, but sadly the current package doesn't allow that.
I would love to attack McLaren for a bad race set up that almost costed them the podium, like it happened with Ferrari this weekend, but at the moment the reality is that Ferrari with a bad set up is just 3 points behind Mercedes in the WDC and second in the WCC, McLaren-Honda has 11 points in total instead, 6 points less than they had in 2015 at this stage.

Regarding most articles being one sided I think it is pretty clear why: the team that operates the car on race weekends is McLaren, it's based in the UK and it's a top team. The thing that fails most of the time in the McLaren-Honda package is the engine, and that isn't connect to many faces in the paddock.
Honda is perceived as a distant, alien, entity. It's easier for everyone to sympathize with McLaren and the drivers: what everyone sees is Alonso being left out of Q3 because of software problems or Vandoorne having an amazing race and then stopping for MGU-K problems.
Ferrari too has this problem. Not this big, but they are seen as distant and strange, and they are only italians, they are much closer to UK than Japan is.

Honda's silence is part of the problem too. Hasegawa is constantly saying "we are sorry, we are pushing hard and we want to improve". It may be the right thing to say in his eyes, but it's pretty clear that the general public, the fans that don't follow internet forums or are interested in politics/technical aspects of F1, laugh at those kind of remarks.
The evidence is on social medias: reaction's on Facebook posts, comments on general media's articles... The normal audience sees Honda as totally out of touch with reality.

In my opinion, and it may be worthless, this huge mess would have been avoided if Honda entered F1 with a small team with no pressure, but I'm also aware that it's McLaren that seeked this partnership first, so it's also partially their fault too, but if I had to choose a party that is "more" wrong than the other I'll surely pick Honda.

"When in Rome do as the romans do" says the proverb, Honda instead acted like Honda, it failed and they are paying the prize for it, because "different" is okay only when it's better. Honda is the "gaijin" this time.






That said, I don't want to attack McLaren or Honda because I don't have reasons to do so, I just want to see my two favorite drivers in F1 fighting for the positions I think they deserve. F1 is mainly a hobby for me, I like it as a sport and I don't get any money for attacking, or defending, McLaren or Honda.
My opinion based on the last three years is that Alonso would have scored many podiums with a Renault engine, and since I enjoy seeing Alonso (and Vandoorne) on the podium because it makes me happy I would like McLaren Honda to get a super competitive package, or McLaren to switch to Renault if that isn't possible. I don't care about politics.

[DrDejan]

Anyone wondering why red bull is interested in Honda?
It is supposed to be the worst engine in history and it will never be competitive. Why Red Bull wants Honda to work with Toro Rosso?

I would not be surprised if Ilmor is talking to Red Bull about the Honda engines.

Actually, they hired Ron Dennis to consult Toro Rosso

On a serious note, Red Bull can afford risk with Toro Rosso. They'll only profit IF Honda delivers competitive engine.

[McL-H]

Anyone wondering why red bull is interested in Honda?
It is supposed to be the worst engine in history and it will never be competitive. Why Red Bull wants Honda to work with Toro Rosso?

I would not be surprised if Ilmor is talking to Red Bull about the Honda engines.

Yeah, some folks here are too short-sighted to see how important a works deal is. Red Bull sees this. They know Honda have hit rock bottom and they will only go up from here. In fact, the progression is very clear this season. Vandoorne was faster than Kvyat on Monza out of all circuits. Not because suddenly Honda is faster than Renault, but because they are closing the gap. Red Bull sees the potential. They see they won't win championships with Renault, but know there is a possibility they will be with Honda. Providing STR with Honda engines, is just a first step to getting a works deal. And at this stage, it's the best option the Bulls have. Hell, it's even the best option for Honda at this stage.

[Wazari]

Mr. Joseki, I don't disagree with your above post which I think was well thought out.

However, during the 2016 season, IMO HRD brought in too many outside consultants with too many design and implementation philosophies that muddied the waters (big frustration factor on my part) and in hindsight actually made things worse. This current PU has too many "outside" ideas thrown together again IMO only, has made integration issues more prevalent and difficult to solve as now some of these "outside consultants" have left because they were asked to leave or left on their own. Quite frankly HRD went too extreme on the spectrum from not enough help to too much outside help. Too many chefs, not enough dishwashers.........

[Chicane]

Next Year 3 engines for an entire season. We have a scene here where Vandoorne had to replace a brand new engine at Spa to get through the race. At Monza he has has had two MGU-K failures in a single weekend. So keeping emotions aside is it LOGICAL to assume they will meet the reliability requirements next season?

Mclaren finish 6th in Hungary and are a butt of all jokes at Spa and Monza. Anyone with basic grasp of F1 will figure out why that is.

Mclaren brand has been reduced to a laughing stock and here we have people asking them to bend over backwards in blind hope to go in to another season with Honda. Currently it is the survival of the brand in question. When the F1 brand itself is damaged what will Mclaren do with the money?

It is not like Mclaren have thrown in the towel after half a season. They have waited for three years to find themselves in a situation where they have scored less points at this stage of the season than in 2015.

Honda is a big name with enormous potential but sadly potential alone will not cut it in f1. There must be some reasoning behind in Mclaren discarding Honda's financial aid and going for a customer Renault. This alone tells you how grim the situation must be as they know what Honda has now and what is in store for next year. Clearly Mclaren have lost all confidence in Honda to make the step needed to power them towards sharp end of the grid.

[zeph]

However, during the 2016 season, IMO HRD brought in too many outside consultants with too many design and implementation philosophies that muddied the waters (big frustration factor on my part) and in hindsight actually made things worse. This current PU has too many "outside" ideas thrown together again IMO only, has made integration issues more prevalent and difficult to solve as now some of these "outside consultants" have left because they were asked to leave or left on their own. Quite frankly HRD went too extreme on the spectrum from not enough help to too much outside help. Too many chefs, not enough dishwashers.........

Well, this is an interesting perspective, and I assume as close to straight from the horse's mouth as we are likely to get.

However, your opinion just reinforces my feeling that Honda is not going to make good next year either. If the 2017 PU did indeed suffer from the "too many cooks" syndrome, it sounds to me like they'd need yet another clean slate to "unmeddle", which essentially means yet another "development" year.

Perhaps Honda will eventually sort it out, but if that means reliable in 2019 and maybe competitive in 2020, that would be a long time to wait for a team like McLaren.

If the STR swap is indeed a done deal, this may work out really well for RBR. I don't see any scenario in which McLaren comes out ahead.

[etusch]

[damager21]

When is the last time McLaren won a constructors championship? Back in 1998.

Its been almost 20 years since McLaren won a constructors championship and most of these years were with Mercedes and not Honda. All this while, Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull have dominated the sports. Only positive was 2008 when Lewis won drivers championship.

2009 was a year when a small team - Brawn, won the constructors championship with a Mercedes engine. McLaren had Mercedes engine too that year but it struggled. 2014 is when Mercedes won the constructors, McLaren had access to the best engine in the paddock but struggled big time.

Just goes to show that nothing in the past 20 years of McLaren suggests that a switch to a good engine will guarantee success. If anything they have faltered and failed to capitalize whenever they had access to best engine on the grid.

McLaren is a great team but nothing since 2008 shows that they have held on to their reputation. Look at the pitstops this year - Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Williams all consistently switch in <2.5 secs. McLaren pit crew in most cases takes over 3secs

Small things but just goes to show that with or without Honda, McLaren does not display the same competitive spirit and edge as before.

[j.yank]

BTW can someone explain why they left Stoffel for 32 laps on the track with old supersofts and because of this he lost many places to Kvyat, Seinz and Hulkenberg? The MGU-K failure seemingly masked this very strange race strategy.

Because nobody cares, they don't make it to the finish anyway. Two MGU-K failures in 24 hours, must be a record, even for Honda.

Well, what would be your comments IF the MGU-K didn't broke? Just think about this possibility.

[Wazari]

Well, this is an interesting perspective, and I assume as close to straight from the horse's mouth as we are likely to get.

However, your opinion just reinforces my feeling that Honda is not going to make good next year either. If the 2017 PU did indeed suffer from the "too many cooks" syndrome, it sounds to me like they'd need yet another clean slate to "unmeddle", which essentially means yet another "development" year.

Perhaps Honda will eventually sort it out, but if that means reliable in 2019 and maybe competitive in 2020, that would be a long time to wait for a team like McLaren.

If the STR swap is indeed a done deal, this may work out really well for RBR. I don't see any scenario in which McLaren comes out ahead.

Well, there is a new "Spec 4" that is "less meddled" built and being tested. I am biased but I think it is a more robust, efficient PU with only a slight weight disadvantage. With all this supposed turmoil, who knows when or if we will see it this year. The overall architecture is not that different from the current spec PU and the "delays" have already occurred so I don't think it will be another "clean slate" scenario like it was from 2016 to 2017

[sasa.nikolic]

My opinion based on the last three years is that Alonso would have scored many podiums with a Renault engine, and since I enjoy seeing Alonso (and Vandoorne) on the podium because it makes me happy I would like McLaren to switch to Renault. I don't care about politics.

Very passionate discussion as Wazari said and I like it!
Lot of fan boy - irrelevant posts but also a lot of smart - valuable post. I will try to restrain myself on commenting only latter ones.
While I agree with Joseki for the most part, wasn't the quoted part exact reason why Alo left Ferrari in (relatively) bad blood?
Although I respect Alo, maybe the most of all present drivers for a few years now, I think no driver should be determining teams policy and engine choice, if he is not bringing the title winning engine - and he isn't.
On the other hand, maybe he isn't. Behind curtain there might be factors determining all of this mess that we don't know of...
I don't belive any of team managers and high directors are stupid, short sighted people....
I do like Honda and I do like McLaren and hope they both will be competitive together or separately for the sake and hralth of F1 itself.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[NL_Fer]

I don't think Honda needs more consultants, as they tend to just drop some report en go byebye when the report is being implemented.

Maybe Honda needs more of a "Binotto" someone how does not has the specific knowledge of the subject, but does recognize the "right" course of development and helps to structure the test and development teams.

[Andres125sx]

I see it this way, no matter if Honda or Renault, next season McLaren will not be title contenders wich is or should be McLaren target, so if next season target is unrealistic, wich manufacturer will provide better chances to fight for titles in next seasons? IMHO, Honda.

We all know Honda problems, but Renault..

1- Perfomance: third PU at some distance from Ferrari and Mercedes
2- Reliability: similar to Honda, ask Verstappen
3- Works team status: not possible, and actually RBR would probably receive better treatment as they enjoy a long relationship with Renault wich provided 4 WCC in past decade, so they will probably be third team for Renault
4- Huge extra demands: with same PU they´d be forced to built a better chassis to RBR, or at least similar, and we all know Adrian Newey. Not imposible obviously, but a huge challenge for sure

So Renault is not (much) better reliability wise, is not better enough to fight for titles perfomance wise, and has some drawbacks when compared to Honda (no works team and fighting Newey with same PU).

Sincerely, if McLaren signs with Renault, my hopes to see McLaren somewhat competitive (for McLaren that means being a top team again) will be annihilated...

[GoranF1]

I see it this way, no matter if Honda or Renault, next season McLaren will not be title contenders wich is or should be McLaren target, so if next season target is unrealistic, wich manufacturer will provide better chances to fight for titles in next seasons? IMHO, Honda.

We all know Honda problems, but Renault..

1- Perfomance: third PU at some distance from Ferrari and Mercedes
2- Reliability: similar to Honda, ask Verstappen
3- Works team status: not possible, and actually RBR would probably receive better treatment as they enjoy a long relationship with Renault wich provided 4 WCC in past decade.
4- Huge extra demands: with same PU they´d be forced to built a better chassis to RBR, or at least similar, and we all know Adrian Newey. Not imposible obviously, but a huge challenge for sure

So Renault is not (much) better reliability wise, is not better enough to fight for titles perfomance wise, and has some drawbacks when compared to Honda (no works team and fighting Newey with same PU).

Sincerely, if McLaren signs with Renault, my hopes to see McLaren somewhat competitive (for McLaren that means being a top team again) will be annihilated...

I dont think Renault loves RB too much whit their history, i think until Renault Sport is ready for title they will give Mclaren their best PU and maybe there is a promise from Alonso to join them in the future if they provide a fair PU to. Mclaren.
Peter Prodrumou and Matt Morris can match Adrian.