2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[HPD]

OK guys, forgive me if I am annoying, but again I will bring the issue with very strange race strategy of Vandoorn at Monza. Until their respective first pit stops, Vandoorn has gaining on average per lap 0.18 sec to Hulkenberg, 0.4 sec to Saintz, 0.08 sec to Kvyat, 0.05 sec to Magnussen (source here: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=results&gp=989 ). After their pit stops he has loosing until his retirement 0.41, 0.49, 0.77, 0.42 per lap respectively to these drivers. I can't imagine that this is a normal race strategy.

Interesting

- From lap 5 to 10 (when hulk hit the pits), Vandorne remained behind Hulk in 0.5 sec, Van had more race pace than Hulk (but could not pass him).

- Lap 11, Kvyat 1: 27: 7 / Van 1: 27: 0 (both with clean track)

- From lap 11 to 20, Van could not demonstrate his pace, because he could not pass to kvyat. Van stayed nearly 10 laps in 0.5 sec of Kvyat.

- After this, Van had an average race pace of 1:27, with very old tires.
Lap 30, Pits and abandonment.

Summary, we never saw the race pace of 3.7 but it was far superior to many teams.

You can see here, with real data: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNu3Z7KMG0
And here: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... il%20Kvyat

[Andres125sx]

I was actually feeling sorry for Mclaren and Alonso these last few years but the attitude displayed by Mclaren/Alonso and their fanbase these last few months makes me realize that they got exactly what they deserved. No sympathy from me anymore. You reap what you sow.

If you were feeling sorry for McLaren and Alonso and you´re only a viewer... can´t you understand their frustration when it´s their job and efforts wich are hampered by Honda´s poor perfomance?

You reap what you sow, agree but, that does not apply to Honda and their missed targets?


Even when I hope they don´t split, I perfectly understand their frustration, complains, rants, and ultimatums. This is F1, when you don´t deliver you´re criticized. If Honda can´t cope with this when their perfomance is what it is, then maybe they should not be involved in F1. But I´ve never heard or read anyone from Honda complaining about McLaren and Alonso´s behaviour, it´s only some fans who think that is not aceptable, Honda probably is responsible enough to assume they deserve the beating

Actually I think the beating they receive from McLaren and Honda is nothing compared to what Honda must be saying theirselves into Sakura. I can imagine Honda leaders replaying Alonso´s rants to their crew and saying: "you don´t like it, then make a proper PU because he´s right, we´re making a fool of ourselves!!"

[Sayeman]

OK guys, forgive me if I am annoying, but again I will bring the issue with very strange race strategy of Vandoorn at Monza. Until their respective first pit stops, Vandoorn has gaining on average per lap 0.18 sec to Hulkenberg, 0.4 sec to Saintz, 0.08 sec to Kvyat, 0.05 sec to Magnussen (source here: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=results&gp=989 ). After their pit stops he has loosing until his retirement 0.41, 0.49, 0.77, 0.42 per lap respectively to these drivers. I can't imagine that this is a normal race strategy.

Interesting

- From lap 5 to 10 (when hulk hit the pits), Vandorne remained behind Hulk in 0.5 sec, Van had more race pace than Hulk (but could not pass him).

- Lap 11, Kvyat 1: 27: 7 / Van 1: 27: 0 (both with clean track)

- From lap 11 to 20, Van could not demonstrate his pace, because he could not pass to kvyat. Van stayed nearly 10 laps in 0.5 sec of Kvyat.

- After this, Van had an average race pace of 1:27, with very old tires.
Lap 30, Pits and abandonment.

Summary, we never saw the race pace of 3.7 but it was far superior to many teams.

You can see here, with real data: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNu3Z7KMG0
And here: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... il%20Kvyat

I think if everyone just took a deep breath, took a moment and at least analyzed the progress over the year then in my opinion most of them would actually want to give Honda another year. The year started awful and Honda deserved most of the criticism they got but atleast things are getting better, no?

Yes, they are a bit of a stubborn company, likes to keep things in-house but they are changing. Talking to engine consultants, taking outside help. People are saying Mercedes and Ilien are helping them, not sure how much truth is in that, so at least let them show what this new PU architecture can do.

Yes, the PU broke down again in Monza and the efficiency is still not good enough but it was actually the MGU_k that broke and looks like a isolated incident rather than than design failure. They took huge risk in changing the architecture of the engine, you should atleast give them 2 years to show the progress, ya know?

[OneAlex]

I reckon McLaren are probably thinking the same as some on here have said. That the reason they did so well in Monza was because of the chassis and with a Renault engine they could have done even better.

For months the consolation for a bad engine has been a repeated mantra that the chassis is one of the best on the grid. I fear any good race will be seen purely in terms of the car and not engine progress in the team.

Honda and the works dream is gone. Now McLaren seem to be dreaming that their car can bridge the gap to Ferrari and Mercedes that Red Bull can't.

[j.yank]

That the reason they did so well in Monza was because of the chassis and with a Renault engine they could have done even better.

Really? Because of the chassis they have done better on Monza? Exactly on Monza? C'mon ...

[NathanOlder]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

[ZakB]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins. Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either. Let's be honest, Honda made a complete mess of things and progress has been too little. Like I said several times, they lack 80-85BHP on customer Mercedes, I don't expect that they will close that gap anytime soon. Don't forget this is a sport and how must the people at McLaren feel, scoring only a few points in the last three seasons. They have created a good team after 2014 and the rate of development has been mighty impressive this year, it's time for at least a decent engine.

Talk about Honda around 20 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yay7UWsSMXM

[HPD]

McLaren has 'Plan B and Plan C' if Alonso leaves

Zak Brow:
Asked what would happen if Alonso decided not to continue at McLaren next year, Brown said: "We've got another plan.

"He hasn't signed with us yet, negotiations are ongoing and going very well. But you've got to have a Plan B and C in the event that you don't reach an agreement, and we've got those plans."

"Fernando's not giving us any ultimatum [over Honda]," Brown said. "All he wants is a competitive car. I'll be spending more time with him and these decisions can be based on whether he thinks we're going to be competitive or not. He's not going to be engine-specific in his desires."
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/20600 ... nso-leaves

Any ideas? Perez, Norris, Button (?

[ZakB]

McLaren has 'Plan B and Plan C' if Alonso leaves

Zak Brow:
Asked what would happen if Alonso decided not to continue at McLaren next year, Brown said: "We've got another plan.

"He hasn't signed with us yet, negotiations are ongoing and going very well. But you've got to have a Plan B and C in the event that you don't reach an agreement, and we've got those plans."

"Fernando's not giving us any ultimatum [over Honda]," Brown said. "All he wants is a competitive car. I'll be spending more time with him and these decisions can be based on whether he thinks we're going to be competitive or not. He's not going to be engine-specific in his desires."
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/20600 ... nso-leaves

Any ideas? Perez, Norris, Button (?

I think Sainz would be a good signing.

[HPD]

McLaren has 'Plan B and Plan C' if Alonso leaves

Zak Brow:
Asked what would happen if Alonso decided not to continue at McLaren next year, Brown said: "We've got another plan.

"He hasn't signed with us yet, negotiations are ongoing and going very well. But you've got to have a Plan B and C in the event that you don't reach an agreement, and we've got those plans."

"Fernando's not giving us any ultimatum [over Honda]," Brown said. "All he wants is a competitive car. I'll be spending more time with him and these decisions can be based on whether he thinks we're going to be competitive or not. He's not going to be engine-specific in his desires."
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/20600 ... nso-leaves

Any ideas? Perez, Norris, Button (?

I think Sainz would be a good signing.

Yes, I like Sainz, but I think he has a contract

[Redragon]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins. Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either. Let's be honest, Honda made a complete mess of things and progress has been too little. Like I said several times, they lack 80-85BHP on customer Mercedes, I don't expect that they will close that gap anytime soon. Don't forget this is a sport and how must the people at McLaren feel, scoring only a few points in the last three seasons. They have created a good team after 2014 and the rate of development has been mighty impressive this year, it's time for at least a decent engine.

Talk about Honda around 20 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yay7UWsSMXM

If Mclaren have the capability of making their own engine and they are not helping the development of his actual engine Honda it make them really a bunch of stupid people and I don't think Mclaren team are stupid at all. ZackB or I should say RedNEO

[Vasconia]

Even when Honda is not accomplishing targets, they still are a better option

At this point its not. The performance has been so bad that its not acceptable anymore. Honda could close some mouths if its 2018 PU is good but lets face the reality, nothing leads to think that this will happen.

Sorry but disagree. We´re talking about Honda, not Dacia. Honda cannot allow this disaster, plain and simple, so even when we fans are tired, bored, depressed and some even angry, we all are happy campers when compared to Honda people. I can´t imagine the pressure there must be inside Sakura.

Honda has redesigned their PU completely, they said theirselves that was a very risky movement (something people tend to ignore so they can say Honda has no clue about what they´re doing), but accepted that risk to be able to fight for victories and titles in the future. If they would be happy as a midfielder, they would be using 2016 concept yet. It was good enough to score exactly double point than 2015 and 2017 season togheter, so it was not that bad, but since their target is winning, they threw that PU to the trash and started from scratch


If you assume they´re not stupid, 2018 should be their best season. 2017 problems were predictable and they actually warned everyone about that BEFORE hitting the track, so it´s not that Honda was expecting to win races this year and they performed this poorly, it was Honda who said this season would be difficult but that was one step back to be able to make three steps forward

If I am not wrong Honda admitted not long a go that they underestimated AGAIN the importance adn complications of redesigning the PU.

This sounds like someone is completely lost.

Many rumours around McLaren continue to say that Sakura are still reluctant to accept external technical assistance.

Once again, this doesn´t look like a winning and good colaboration, seriously.

[Andres125sx]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins.

Assuming McLaren can make a better chassis to RBR is certainly a very big assumption, MUCH bigger than assuming Honda will improve

Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either.

Did you sometime hear or read about diminishing returns? Everbody in here acts like Honda can improve more than their rivals, because that´s the reality, as simple as that. Only Honda haters like yourself act like if that would be impossible or unreal

[Andres125sx]

At this point its not. The performance has been so bad that its not acceptable anymore. Honda could close some mouths if its 2018 PU is good but lets face the reality, nothing leads to think that this will happen.

Sorry but disagree. We´re talking about Honda, not Dacia. Honda cannot allow this disaster, plain and simple, so even when we fans are tired, bored, depressed and some even angry, we all are happy campers when compared to Honda people. I can´t imagine the pressure there must be inside Sakura.

Honda has redesigned their PU completely, they said theirselves that was a very risky movement (something people tend to ignore so they can say Honda has no clue about what they´re doing), but accepted that risk to be able to fight for victories and titles in the future. If they would be happy as a midfielder, they would be using 2016 concept yet. It was good enough to score exactly double point than 2015 and 2017 season togheter, so it was not that bad, but since their target is winning, they threw that PU to the trash and started from scratch


If you assume they´re not stupid, 2018 should be their best season. 2017 problems were predictable and they actually warned everyone about that BEFORE hitting the track, so it´s not that Honda was expecting to win races this year and they performed this poorly, it was Honda who said this season would be difficult but that was one step back to be able to make three steps forward

If I am not wrong Honda admitted not long a go that they underestimated AGAIN the importance adn complications of redesigning the PU.

This sounds like someone is completely lost.

Many rumours around McLaren continue to say that Sakura are still reluctant to accept external technical assistance.

Once again, this doesn´t look like a winning and good colaboration, seriously.

Well, I think it´s pretty clear Honda is a company with no qualms about assuming and even saying publicly what are their faults. That´s different to being lost. Ferrari would have NEVER said that publicly, but that does not mean only Honda made mistakes, only that they´re way way more sincere than european manufacturers.

BTW, I think people usually forget about testing ban and its huge relevance on development process. Mix that with a hugely complicated PU and you´ll realize how brave was Honda entering F1 with some disadvantage to their rivals.

But that´s what happens with brave people, when they loose their bet some people assume they´re stupid

[Vasconia]

Well, I think it´s pretty clear Honda is a company with no qualms about assuming and even saying publicly what are their faults. That´s different to being lost. Ferrari would have NEVER said that publicly, but that does not mean only Honda made mistakes, only that they´re way way more sincere than european manufacturers.

BTW, I think people usually forget about testing ban and its huge relevance on development process. Mix that with a hugely complicated PU and you´ll realize how brave was Honda entering F1 with some disadvantage to their rivals.

But that´s what happens with brave people, when they loose their bet some people assume they´re stupid

I don´t call them stupid. They are lost and their pride is not helping them to find the correct path to success. Do you remember how ended Honda´s last experience in F1? their successful era was loooong ago. They should have started with a smaller team and take its time to develop a good project. Many things have been made wrongly (time to develop the PU, the resources used, how they have underestimaded many things related to the PU,etc), I would be surprised if things end well. I sincerely think that if they change to Toro Rosso this would be good for them. Less pressure and expectatives so I think that things could workg smoothly.