Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MrPotatoHead]

So they feel that they are only 25BHP short of beating Renault? If that was actually the case, McLaren wouldn't consider switching.

Well if they matched Renault in total power throughout the powerband AND they were reliable... then you might have a point. But...

[bill shoe]

If you aren't sure where friction sits in the grand scheme of things I highly recommend watching this video on Nascar engines.
Now before anyone rolls their eyes if you aren't aware the efficiency of Nascar engines is almost even with that of the V8 / V10 F1 engines so you can learn a LOT from this presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZCnG1HwDM

NICE !!

[makecry]

They are only talking about the ICE.

It's almost impossible to "only" talk about the ICE on these power units. It is never that simple - especially in "qualifying mode"

So they feel that they are only 25BHP short of beating Renault? If that was actually the case, McLaren wouldn't consider switching.

It's not just about max power output. Fuel efficiency, reliability, power delivery , deployment.Every single time I see the max power output number thrown around it makes me roll my eyes.

[Sasha]

Valve train second to only piston to bore in friction.

[McMika98]

So they feel that they are only 25BHP short of beating Renault? If that was actually the case, McLaren wouldn't consider switching.

Using similar logic as BBC Honda have similar power range to Renault. Mclaren prolly know that now but ZakB and ErikB being the pompous fat men they are, had already dug the grave to bury Honda long before the summer break. First it was an agreement with Mercedes board only to be vetod by angry Toto. The last chance for Honda was Spa where even 3.7 wasnt ready then let alone 4.0. Reading between the lines even Erik seemed surprised by spec 3.7 performance but the focus has already been shifted to next year in Mclarens case since Spa.

[gruntguru]

They run higher fuel pressures with mechanical fuel pumps - those consume more power and cause more friction.
Geartrains potentially see higher loads and require larger bearings.

With the current cylinder pressures and the new oil consumption limits I would not be surprised if teams ran scraper rings. These require higher tension as they typically see lower energizing pressures.

Pneumatic valve pressures are likely lower as the speed has decreased therefore seal preload should be lower than V8s.
Exhaust valves open against higher pressures so camshaft radial loads have gone up and so have cam bearing and finger friction.

The valve "spring" pressure will likely be around the same as the v8 engines, if not higher, as the backside of the valve now has to resist the charge pressure pushing down trying to open the valves. You always have to increase valve spring pressure on a turbo engine.

I don't believe that is significant although it is a much touted "fact". Remember - although the manifolds (ex and in) have higher than atmospheric pressure, the cycle pressures throughout the engine are increased so it is likely the pressure drop across the valve is little different to NA.

[Andres125sx]

seems to me that the divorce is already done

yeah why can't we assume the divorce already happened before the summer break !!

Probably because that never happened

You guys should stop reading media BS, they need something to talk about in summer, and McLaren talks with some other PU manufacturer to evaluate their options was a gold mine for them

[63l8qrrfy6]

The valve "spring" pressure will likely be around the same as the v8 engines, if not higher, as the backside of the valve now has to resist the charge pressure pushing down trying to open the valves. You always have to increase valve spring pressure on a turbo engine.

The same effect can be achieved by increasing the plunger diameter. This is preferable to increasing pressure as the seals will be more durable (and create less friction) and the volume increases which gives better performance against oil buildup in the pneumatic chamber.

That being said keep in mind that the force on the back of the valve goes up with the square of the radius and v8 valves were a lot larger. Similarly the inertial valve force goes up with the square of the speed so again it would have been higher on the v8.

I would be very surprised if they had to increase pressures for the v6.

[baybars]

More about updates



https://as.com/motor/2017/09/06/formula ... 69746.html

Well, if their level were at Renault but still lagging behind RdBull in qualifications, it means that McLaren chassis isn't too good.

The news is from Sportiva (from Japan). It does not contain any official quote from Hasegawa, it seems a comment. I'm not sure

さらにハンガリーGP後のテストでデータ収集を行ない、煮詰めた”予選モード”の制御マッピングをベルギーGPから実戦投入。メルセデスAMGが使っているのと同じように、ICEに負荷がかかるため一時的にしか使用できないが20kW近いパワーアップを果たすことができる。つまり、一時的とはいえルノー製パワーユニットと同等のレベルになるのだ。「HRD Sakura」では耐久テストが行なわれ、決勝でもどれだけ使うことができるのか把握が進んでいる。

In addition, we collected data on the test after the Hungarian GP and put control mapping of boiled "qualifying mode" from the Belgian Grand Prix. Just as it is used by Mercedes AMG, it can only be used temporarily because of the load on the ICE, but it can achieve power up close to 20 kW. In other words, it is temporary but it is at the same level as the Renault power unit. In "HRD Sakura" endurance tests have been conducted, and it is being understood how much can be used in the final.
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_2.php

I found this news from 2015 same site
Arai said that Renault 10 hp strong then Honda
is it similar ?

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /26/f1_94/

[dren]

They run higher fuel pressures with mechanical fuel pumps - those consume more power and cause more friction.
Geartrains potentially see higher loads and require larger bearings.

With the current cylinder pressures and the new oil consumption limits I would not be surprised if teams ran scraper rings. These require higher tension as they typically see lower energizing pressures.

Pneumatic valve pressures are likely lower as the speed has decreased therefore seal preload should be lower than V8s.
Exhaust valves open against higher pressures so camshaft radial loads have gone up and so have cam bearing and finger friction.

The valve "spring" pressure will likely be around the same as the v8 engines, if not higher, as the backside of the valve now has to resist the charge pressure pushing down trying to open the valves. You always have to increase valve spring pressure on a turbo engine.

I don't believe that is significant although it is a much touted "fact". Remember - although the manifolds (ex and in) have higher than atmospheric pressure, the cycle pressures throughout the engine are increased so it is likely the pressure drop across the valve is little different to NA.

This could vary based on valve timing. I don't know how soon the exhaust valves open to 'bleed' expansion gases to the turbine.

[MrPotatoHead]

They run higher fuel pressures with mechanical fuel pumps - those consume more power and cause more friction.
Geartrains potentially see higher loads and require larger bearings.

With the current cylinder pressures and the new oil consumption limits I would not be surprised if teams ran scraper rings. These require higher tension as they typically see lower energizing pressures.

Pneumatic valve pressures are likely lower as the speed has decreased therefore seal preload should be lower than V8s.
Exhaust valves open against higher pressures so camshaft radial loads have gone up and so have cam bearing and finger friction.

The valve "spring" pressure will likely be around the same as the v8 engines, if not higher, as the backside of the valve now has to resist the charge pressure pushing down trying to open the valves. You always have to increase valve spring pressure on a turbo engine.

I don't believe that is significant although it is a much touted "fact". Remember - although the manifolds (ex and in) have higher than atmospheric pressure, the cycle pressures throughout the engine are increased so it is likely the pressure drop across the valve is little different to NA.

It is a very real problem. Build some high PR turbo engines and you can run into it. It is has been seen on engine dynos using measuring equipment monitoring the valvetrain.

The problem is more about controlling the valve during the opening and closing events.

[Far]

@AlbertFabrega Ayer hablamos d la quema d aceite en los motores d F1. Qué és y q ha pasado? https://t.co/tFTtIYLLAT

Link to Tweet: https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 6284916736
explains the tricks of burning oil in the engine
En español

[loner]

maybe this more 4 kg Wazari talked about is what it takes to strengthen the ICE to use all the extra tricks like the other manufacturers .. extreme abuse , burning oil and whatever else ...

[ziggy]

The valve "spring" pressure will likely be around the same as the v8 engines, if not higher, as the backside of the valve now has to resist the charge pressure pushing down trying to open the valves. You always have to increase valve spring pressure on a turbo engine.

I don't believe that is significant although it is a much touted "fact". Remember - although the manifolds (ex and in) have higher than atmospheric pressure, the cycle pressures throughout the engine are increased so it is likely the pressure drop across the valve is little different to NA.

It is a very real problem. Build some high PR turbo engines and you can run into it. It is has been seen on engine dynos using measuring equipment monitoring the valvetrain.

The problem is more about controlling the valve during the opening and closing events.

Very hard to say, untill we know exactly what type of friction it is. It could be piston/cylinder friction, it could be bearings, MGUH, compressor, turbo...

From all the problems seen with the PU I would put my money on piston/rings/cylinder friction definitely. The pistons are "sticking" under some circumstances. Thats why the PU broke in 2 halfs and so on.

5.3.1 Cylinder bore diameter must be 80mm (+/- 0.1mm)
5.14.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific application, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the
power unit:
a) Magnesium based alloys.
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s).
c) Intermetallic materials.
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Iridium or Rhenium.
e) Copper based alloys containing more than 2.75% Beryllium.
f) Any other alloy class containing more than 0.25% Beryllium.
g) Tungsten base alloys.
h) Ceramics and ceramic matrix composites.

Finding the right materials can be a pain in the arse. With so many restrictions, it can be a gamble on finding the right alloy for the pistons, given the high compression . Basically the pistons have to "expand" at the very same rate as the cylinder at a change of temperature. If not, we see a waterfall of fluids flowing out of the car

[dren]

Everyone is playing by the same formula. We've been lead to believe it is not the piston-bore friction. That should be well understood by now with materials allowed. My guess is it is due to a design compromise elsewhere in the engine; it's why we are discussing the head.