2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[ZakB]

We should know 48 hrs after Monza, been almost 5 days. Now Twitter is saying another 24 hours.

McLaren executive director Zak Brown expects to make an announcement on the team's 2018 power unit supplier next week following a 'predictable' double retirement from the Italian Grand Prix.

There is still time.

[godlameroso]

They should stay with Honda, no matter how bad the engine has been this year it's only going to get better. The thing about rock bottom is that you can only go up from there.

[Gerhardsa]

or stay there...

[jesa7271]

In 2019 Zak B shall eat his words when a frustrated Fernando Alonso can't win because a Red Bull Honda is driving in front of him.

[Squid]

I've seen enough of the Honda chassis integeration over the last three years thank you. Torro Rosso can enjoy that now. Meanwhile McLaren can enjoy the same benefits that have helped power Redbull to its podiums and sole victory so far this year.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen buddy. Red Bull was Renault's works team until 2016. They have a much better contract than McLaren will ever get.

You mean the contract that doesn't allow Redbull to say anything bad or even say the word "Renault" due to what happened last year? That one?

How about the one that gives Red Bull a veto on other possible Renault customers?

[Sayeman]

In 2019 Zak B shall eat his words when a frustrated Fernando Alonso can't win because a Red Bull Honda is driving in front of him.

I got a feeling that Fernando's ship has sailed unfortunately. Although he says he is at the top of his game right now, his best years were at Ferrari. Those near misses in 2007, 2010, 2012 will hurt him forever, especially in 2010 and 2012 because he was the best driver on the grid. Whichever direction Mclaren goes there won't be any title for him in the next 2 years. He will inevitably decline after 40.

[Chene_Mostert]

In 2019 Zak B shall eat his words when a frustrated Fernando Alonso can't win because a Red Bull Honda is driving in front of him.

I got a feeling that Fernando's ship has sailed unfortunately. Although he says he is at the top of his game right now, his best years were at Ferrari. Those near misses in 2007, 2012, 2014 will hurt him forever, especially in 2012 and 2014 because he was the best driver on the grid. Whichever direction Mclaren goes there won't be any title for him in the next 2 years. He will inevitably decline after 40.

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[Phil]

This may all be down to Honda.

From what I understand: Renault can't supply more than 3 teams. They neither have the capacity nor the ability to do so. I think 3 is also the limit mandated by the FIA.
RedBull, while perhaps interested in a possible Honda deal for Torro-Rosso, can't do anything as long as Honda (and I assume McLaren who has a say) doesn't approve.

The deal for Torro-Rosso and Honda may be more complex than simply "supplying an engine". I assume for RedBull to be truly interested, it would have to include some form of sponsorship to minimize the cost. I also assume RedBull to be quite aggressive about "performance exit clauses". Too big the risk of switching to a more uncompetitive engine otherwise.

Honda will hardly submit to any of these demands by RedBull for Torro-Rosso, as long as they are still in a "works-partnership" with McLaren.

Adding to all of that, the split up between McLaren and Honda would be quite complicated. Will damages have to be paid for the premature termination of the relationship? What about driver salary? Sponsorship?

Also; Why would Honda go for a potentially short-term and unpredictable deal for Torro-Rosso over what they already have with McLaren, if there is a substantial risk that RedBull would not hesitate to give them the boot if they can't perform in a way RedBull mandates? Honda might risk standing here by end of 2018 as the losers. Honda have a contract with McLaren and a contractually guaranteed working relationship for another few years. Why give that up for something less?

Assuming McLaren wants out, they are probably desperately trying to convince Honda to let them go and settle for a lesser contract with RedBull/Torro-Rosso. Honda now is probably deciding if it's worth it to end up with a less competitive team (a test-subject for RedBull) and risk being forced out later on if they can't get this new partnership to work.


My best guess and prediction is that this will not be solved because there are too many unknowns that can't be (or won't be) contractually sorted and things stay as is for 2018.

[kaepernickus]

The thing about rock bottom is that you can only go up from there.

... or stay there.

IF it gets better staying is of course the best option, but it's now season 3 for Honda and they haven't come closer to podiums or even wins at all.

[RS200E]

So much for an announcement this week.

[HPD]

I do not believe in the threats of Mclaren. No longer want to continue with Honda, but do not know how to solve this problem.

Franz Tost: If McLaren puts an end to his partnership with Honda, there may be a chance for us, but I do not know. Discussions can only begin if the ingredients are brought together to bring us into a position where collaboration would make sense. Currently, this is not the case.

[loner]

well they get rid of Ron Dennis and Jost Capito for the founder of just marketing international surely the guy have
a massive business mind, iam sure Renault deal will be coupled with some sponsorship deals
Mclaren people know better ofcourse ,only a blind won't see Honda progress so isn't it a differernt path to go with the new management if they see Honda progress not matching their development pace expectation and chose another path
good for them carry on
- mclaren building an engine is something won't happen its not like manufacturing a can of meat huge facilities needed huge money needed huge time to gain experiences and trials needed they will deal with another engine manufacture and thats it.

[Andres125sx]

I wasn't referring to being more competitive. There's a stark contrast between how the team was in the years from 2012 to 2014 and how it is now. It's hard to pin point as outsiders of course, but I'd say the management and staff changes were the right ones. I don't want to turn this into a Ferrari specific post, but I did just recently post in another topic that I'm very impressed by how Vettel handled himself at Monza post race. While Arrivabene was clearly very unhappy and critical towards his own team, Vettel said all the right things and carried the right state-of-mind post race. Instead of adding negative energy over losing the lead in the WDC and losing at the Italians most important race of the year - their home turf - he showed himself as rather upbeat and positive... one even got the feeling Vettel almost rallied the team into taking this defeat and turn it into something positive and motivating for the next coming races.

It was even picked up by AMuS:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 31003.html

Sebastian Vettel hat ein gutes Gespür dafür, was die Ferrari-Seele braucht. Auf dem Podium sorgte er mit seinen italienischen Worten für Jubelstürme bei den Tifosi. Man konnte fast das Gefühl bekommen, dass der Heppenheimer das Rennen gerade gewonnen hat. Doch das Gegenteil war der Fall: Mercedes feierte auf feindlichem Territorium einen überlegenen Doppelsieg. Und zu allem Überfluss nahm Lewis Hamilton seinem Rivalen aus Heppenheim auch noch die Führung in der WM-Wertung ab.

...

Während Konzernboss Sergio Marchionne und Teamchef Maurizio Arrivabene unisono das Versagen der eigenen Mannschaft kritisierten, versuchte Vettel gute Stimmung zu verbreiten. Hier sieht man, wer der wahre Anführer bei der Scuderia ist. Die Worte von Vettel klangen, wie eine Motivationsrede an das eigene Team: „Ich weiß, dass die Leute morgen mit noch mehr Ehrgeiz ins Büro kommen. Wir hatten eine gute Saison, aber wir sind noch lange nicht am Ziel. Ferrari muss in allen Bereichen die Nummer 1 sein. Mercedes macht uns das Leben schwer. Aber es ist ein langer Weg.“

Those that don't understand German, it roughly translates to that 'while Sergio Marchionne and Arrivabene were very critical towards their own team, Vettel tried to spread a good mood and that he conducted himself like the true leader of Ferrari.'. The article goes on to say that his speeches sounded like a motivation speech directed at his own team. He later said that "he knows that tomorrow everyone will come with more ehrgeiz and ambition to the office. They've had a good season so far, but it's not over yet. They're not number 1 in all areas, Mercedes is making their lifes difficult and it's gonna be a long road [a long fight; e.g. it's not over yet]".

Now before this turns into a Alonso did this and that too, or Vettel vs. Alonso etc, lets just say that both drivers are exceptional at what they do in different ways and Vettel is obviously in a very different state of mind, already having won 4 titles and being quite a bit younger than Alonso. He can afford to be more relaxed. If he wins or doesn't win another championship with Ferrari, he will still go down as one of the most successful drivers of F1. My point is merely that Vettel, since his arrival at Ferrari, has been ticking the right boxes. He's usually quite upbeat, he's intelligent and highly diplomatic, off the track he's extremely likeable (I'm saying this as a non-Vettel supporter).

In the years from 2010 to 2012, one could see the difference between Button and Hamilton. Button was always upbeat, positive, relaxed, Lewis more frustrated and clearly not happy, not happy with the team, not happy with his surroundings etc. A driver that gets on well with his team, goes the extra mile by showing up at the factory, says the right things etc, captivates more energy and motivation from his team to the point, they'd give it their all and very best. A poisonous relationship is never good, which brings me to Alonso, McLaren and Honda.


What McLaren-Honda needs, more than anything, is unity. For them to act as one-team, one entity - the "works-team" they are. One hand washes the other. Alonso is the "face" - the driver who turns what the team has brought together into results. He is also the teams voice. People, the team, and that does also include Honda, need to believe in him and his trust into the team.

[snip]

Well, I fully agree with everything Phil, from Ferrari changes to Vettel behaviour specially post-Monza (I read your post and not sure if replied but I thought the same after hearing him on the podium), and also about McLaren and Alonso probably being too demanding for such a new and complex project. Agree with everything, and that´s weird with your usually looong posts where you talk about several things =D> =D>

The only thing I would add is a bit of blame on Honda. Reading your post it looks like everything is McLaren/Alonso faults because of being too impatient, when we all know Honda is underperforming so severely you can´t criticize McLaren and Alonso too harsh because of being so critic, even when more team spirit would be much better obviously

[Sayeman]

well they get rid of Ron Dennis and Jost Capito for the founder of just marketing international surely the guy have
a massive business mind, iam sure Renault deal will be coupled with some sponsorship deals
Mclaren people know better ofcourse ,only a blind won't see Honda progress so isn't it a differernt path to go with the new management if they see Honda progress not matching their development pace expectation and chose another path
good for them carry on
- mclaren building an engine is something won't happen its not like manufacturing a can of meat huge facilities needed huge money needed huge time to gain experiences and trials needed they will deal with another engine manufacture and thats it.

Mclaren aggrandizing their own engine building capabilities. All their modern V8s are based on 20 year old Nissans. Every modern McLaren, from the 2011 MP4-12C to the P1 to the 720S is powered by a single family of twin turbo V8s. They neither have enough funding to spend 300-400 million on these super complex hybrid engines, nor they have the necessary personnel. The engines beyond 2020 might be a bit simpler but won't be that simple. Manufacturers are at a arms race in finding the last ounce of energy from the fossil fuel. ICE is where the gains will be made.

Mclaren wouldn't have swallowed their pride and ask Ferrari for a engine if they weren't that desperate. Just one of many empty threats of Mclaren.

[Andres125sx]

Well if the engines are significantly simpler for 2021, any reason why McLaren couldn't make their own engines? Simple or not, they'll struggle like Honda at the beginning, that's for sure...

Yes, one simple reason, no matter how simple the engines will become, they´ll fight with companies with huge experience manufacturing engines, so they wouldn´t struggle like Honda, they´d struggle a lot more.

It´s curious how different people take same facts different. When we all see Honda underperforming many people is assuming McLaren could manufacture their own PUs with similar results. When I see Honda underperforming I assume delivering in F1 with current PUs is so extremely complicated even a world class company like Honda struggle, let alone if it´s a new company in the business