2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

The thing about rock bottom is that you can only go up from there.

... or stay there.

IF it gets better staying is of course the best option, but it's now season 3 for Honda and they haven't come closer to podiums or even wins at all.

They can't stay where they are, they are now on the proper trajectory, reliability and power be damned for this season.

Now it's just testing and developing, I've said it countless times, when everything goes according to schedule nothing goes according to plan. The inverse is also true, when everything goes according to plan, nothing can go according to schedule. The plan is to win, the schedule is now, you have to pick, Honda is sticking to plan, McLaren is sticking to schedule on the power unit. Yet McLaren sticks to plan regarding their own chassis, let's face it they're behind there as well, although not by as much as Honda has been.

It was inevitable, but Vandoorne's performance in Monza is a little ray of hope, it seems they're finally starting to make progress. I fully expect a decent result in the next two races, even better if they get the spec 4.

Hell if they take penalties in Suzuka but qualify within a second of pole, I'd be perfectly ok with that.

[Andres125sx]

In 2019 Zak B shall eat his words when a frustrated Fernando Alonso can't win because a Red Bull Honda is driving in front of him.

I got a feeling that Fernando's ship has sailed unfortunately. Although he says he is at the top of his game right now, his best years were at Ferrari. Those near misses in 2007, 2012, 2014 will hurt him forever, especially in 2012 and 2014 because he was the best driver on the grid. Whichever direction Mclaren goes there won't be any title for him in the next 2 years. He will inevitably decline after 40.

If true, then there´s still 2 seasons to win titles, he´s 36 right now

[loner]

well they get rid of Ron Dennis and Jost Capito for the founder of just marketing international surely the guy have
a massive business mind, iam sure Renault deal will be coupled with some sponsorship deals
Mclaren people know better ofcourse ,only a blind won't see Honda progress so isn't it a differernt path to go with the new management if they see Honda progress not matching their development pace expectation and chose another path
good for them carry on
- mclaren building an engine is something won't happen its not like manufacturing a can of meat huge facilities needed huge money needed huge time to gain experiences and trials needed they will deal with another engine manufacture and thats it.

Mclaren aggrandizing their own engine building capabilities, all their modern V8s are based on 20 year old Nissans. Every modern McLaren, from the 2011 MP4-12C to the P1 to the 720S is powered by a single family of twin turbo V8s. They neither have enough funding to spend 300-400 million on these super complex hybrid engines, nor they have the necessary personnel. The engines beyond 2020 might be a bit simpler but won't be that simple. Manufacturers are at a arms race in finding the last ounce of energy from the fossil fuel. ICE is where the gains will be made.

Mclaren wouldn't have swallowed their pride and ask Ferrari for a engine if they weren't that desperate. Just one of many empty threats of Mclaren.

north of a billion to start manufacturing an engine let alone F1 powerunit ,the current manufacturers in the business for 100 years or about

[Sasha]

This may all be down to Honda.

From what I understand: Renault can't supply more than 3 teams. They neither have the capacity nor the ability to do so. I think 3 is also the limit mandated by the FIA.
RedBull, while perhaps interested in a possible Honda deal for Torro-Rosso, can't do anything as long as Honda (and I assume McLaren who has a say) doesn't approve.

The deal for Torro-Rosso and Honda may be more complex than simply "supplying an engine". I assume for RedBull to be truly interested, it would have to include some form of sponsorship to minimize the cost. I also assume RedBull to be quite aggressive about "performance exit clauses". Too big the risk of switching to a more uncompetitive engine otherwise.

Honda will hardly submit to any of these demands by RedBull for Torro-Rosso, as long as they are still in a "works-partnership" with McLaren.

Adding to all of that, the split up between McLaren and Honda would be quite complicated. Will damages have to be paid for the premature termination of the relationship? What about driver salary? Sponsorship?

Also; Why would Honda go for a potentially short-term and unpredictable deal for Torro-Rosso over what they already have with McLaren, if there is a substantial risk that RedBull would not hesitate to give them the boot if they can't perform in a way RedBull mandates? Honda might risk standing here by end of 2018 as the losers. Honda have a contract with McLaren and a contractually guaranteed working relationship for another few years. Why give that up for something less?

Assuming McLaren wants out, they are probably desperately trying to convince Honda to let them go and settle for a lesser contract with RedBull/Torro-Rosso. Honda now is probably deciding if it's worth it to end up with a less competitive team (a test-subject for RedBull) and risk being forced out later on if they can't get this new partnership to work.


My best guess and prediction is that this will not be solved because there are too many unknowns that can't be (or won't be) contractually sorted and things stay as is for 2018.

^
Yep
McLaren can cry all they want in public but Honda is the one who decides and Honda wants to stay with McLaren for 2018.

[HPD]

In case they did not know. Alonso deleted from his Twitter profile, any reference to Mclaren Honda.
(obviously this does not prove anything, but it's still very strange )

[Mad]

In case they did not know. Alonso deleted from his Twitter profile, any reference to Mclaren Honda.
(obviously this does not prove anything, but it's still very strange )

He has already wasted 7 years at Ferrari and Mclaren, would it be too bad to wait another year?
And why remove Mclaren? thought they were gonna win together after shoving Honda out of F1?

[ZakB]

In case they did not know. Alonso deleted from his Twitter profile, any reference to Mclaren Honda.
(obviously this does not prove anything, but it's still very strange )

He only changed the banner, like he has done several times in the last couple of years. If you don't believe me, use the waybackmachine. Maybe you should join TMZ, sounds like a good fit.

Well if the engines are significantly simpler for 2021, any reason why McLaren couldn't make their own engines? Simple or not, they'll struggle like Honda at the beginning, that's for sure...

Yes, one simple reason, no matter how simple the engines will become, they´ll fight with companies with huge experience manufacturing engines, so they wouldn´t struggle like Honda, they´d struggle a lot more.

It´s curious how different people take same facts different. When we all see Honda underperforming many people is assuming McLaren could manufacture their own PUs with similar results. When I see Honda underperforming I assume delivering in F1 with current PUs is so extremely complicated even a world class company like Honda struggle, let alone if it´s a new company in the business

Because the plan is to standardize a lot of things, whichis also the reason why many manufacturers are interested in joining. McLaren won't be as stupid and they would hire the right people that are actually capable of achieving things, unlike our Japanese friends.

Brown also said it's a possibility and will depend on how much it will cost. Maybe they can do something together with Cosworth.

Brown said McLaren would need to know well in advance what the new rules were before it could be tempted to go down the engine route.

"For us to do our own engine, that's not something we've done before - so that would require a good lead time and some good capital expenditure," he explained.

"We'd consider doing it. We just need to have an understanding of the platform, what are the rules, and what is it going to cost?

"We certainly wouldn't be in a position to spend the hundreds of millions that it takes now to develop engines, so they're going to have to change the engine formula for it to be something that economically would be viable for us."

[BeardedAce]

Because the plan is to standardize a lot of things, which is also the reason why many manufacturers are interested in joining. McLaren won't be as stupid and they would hire the right people that are actually capable of achieving things, unlike our Japanese friends.

What they are capable of is signing contracts in a rash manner without properly thinking about the consequences and then whine in the media and stage charades to get out of the mess of their own making.

"We certainly wouldn't be in a position to spend the hundreds of millions that it takes now to develop engines, so they're going to have to change the engine formula for it to be something that economically would be viable for us."

F1 has never been economically viable, F1 is not gonna change their ways so that Mclaren can bring their own engines.

Meanwhile....

Fernando Alonso has removed all references to the Woking outfit from his social media accounts and website
Talk of own engine suggests that some elements at Woking have lost the plot and are no longer living in the real world.
if McLaren does end its agreement with Honda, other than the end of the current cash-flow from the Japanese manufacturer into the Woking coffers, there is talk that Honda might take legal action for the broken contract.

https://www.pitpass.com/60066/A-new-twi ... Laren-saga

[HPD]

Meanwhile....

Fernando Alonso has removed all references to the Woking outfit from his social media accounts and website
Talk of own engine suggests that some elements at Woking have lost the plot and are no longer living in the real world.
if McLaren does end its agreement with Honda, other than the end of the current cash-flow from the Japanese manufacturer into the Woking coffers, there is talk that Honda might take legal action for the broken contract.

https://www.pitpass.com/60066/A-new-twi ... Laren-saga

Is what I try to tell the user @ZakB ... but he never accepts anything.
The same day that Alonso has removed all references to the Mclaren Honda. He published this:
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 6820549632

[Sayeman]

The same day that Alonso has removed all references to the Mclaren Honda. He published this:

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 6820549632

Alonso moving to indy for a year would be the best for all parties involved. Let Honda work in peace for a year and then come back in 2019 for one final push to the title. Mclaren already has button on it's payroll.

[diffuser]

The thing about rock bottom is that you can only go up from there.

... or stay there.

IF it gets better staying is of course the best option, but it's now season 3 for Honda and they haven't come closer to podiums or even wins at all.

It is season 1 of a major overhaul.

[ZakB]

Meanwhile....

Fernando Alonso has removed all references to the Woking outfit from his social media accounts and website
Talk of own engine suggests that some elements at Woking have lost the plot and are no longer living in the real world.
if McLaren does end its agreement with Honda, other than the end of the current cash-flow from the Japanese manufacturer into the Woking coffers, there is talk that Honda might take legal action for the broken contract.

https://www.pitpass.com/60066/A-new-twi ... Laren-saga

Is what I try to tell the user @ZakB ... but he never accepts anything.
The same day that Alonso has removed all references to the Mclaren Honda. He published this:

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 6820549632

The only reference to McLaren was the banner, which he has changed several times this year. So all references, was just one single image and that is your proof Alonso is leaving F1, I now understand why you support Honda . I even checked it with the WayBackMachine, don't believe everything you read online.

Look guys, yesterday he posted a image of the McLaren Honda, this must mean he's going to stay another ten years.
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 6788021249

[Shrieker]

Instead of going to Renault and straining themselves financially, why don't McLaren ask for more money from Honda ? As far as I can understand, Honda are the party that want to continue this partnership. I say ask for more money, also give Alonso the boot and request Honda to keep paying the amount that was paid to him. Now, they should be sitting on a decent pile of extra $$$ thanks to Honda. Hire Mario Illien with it, and have him build an in-house state of the art R&D facility for F1 engines. Start preparing for the 2021 engine formula. This is quite risky financially, but can benefit McLaren immensely in the long run. And in the mean time, if Honda get their act together then kudos to them.

[ZakB]

Instead of going to Renault and straining themselves financially, why don't McLaren ask for more money from Honda ? As far as I can understand, Honda are the party that want to continue this partnership. I say ask for more money, also give Alonso the boot and request Honda to keep paying the amount that was paid to him. Now, they should be sitting on a decent pile of extra $$$ thanks to Honda. Hire Mario Illien with it, and have him build an in-house state of the art R&D facility for F1 engines. Start preparing for the 2021 engine formula. This is quite risky, but can benefit McLaren immensely in the long run.

And waste three more years? The McLaren Honda relationship is done, there is no base to continue. Honda isn't willing to accept help from outside, they could even buy technology from Mercedes, but declined.

[Shrieker]

And waste three more years? The McLaren Honda relationship is done, there is no base to continue. Honda isn't willing to accept help from outside, they could even buy technology from Mercedes, but declined.

I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but McLaren are in such a position that there isn't an engine available in those three years that can carry them to a title. Podiums ? Likely. A few race wins ? Probably. But definitely not the title. Honda or not, the soonest opportunity McLaren can get for a title challenge is 2021. No new manufacturer will be so out of their mind to come in before then; Mercedes is a no go (and so is Ferrari), Renault have their works team and Red Bull are second in line. McLaren are almost certain to get 2nd rate engines if they switch to Renault, and that will never be enough to win the title.

So this all begs the question as to why the current McLaren management are so desperate to switch to Renault. Is it all to then say "heeey look, we pulled the team from 10th on the grid up to fourth, ain't that great?" at the end of 2018. In Turkish we call it "dostlar alışverişte görsün". It roughly means let's be seen as doing something. And that 6 position difference in the constructors championship will not even make up for losing Honda's financial support and having to pay for Renault engines.