Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ollandos]

730 hp for 2014 ...840 hp now ...+160hp from ers sustem....

[OO7]

The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.

[wuzak]

The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.

Not sure about that. Since they also state that they are making as much or more power than the V10s. Which was >900hp.

[FW17]

They say V10 power, but not which year of the V10

[wuzak]

They say V10 power, but not which year of the V10

So it could be the 1989 power of 700hp?

[MrPotatoHead]

50% achieved on the dyno.
That's around 830hp from 1240kW for fuel flow (from Andy Cowell a year or so ago).
Around 990hp all up.

actually 830 hp from combined fuel burn and whatever in-cylinder oil burn
so maybe less than 50% bte ?

plus oil burn ex-cylinder increasing turbine power

The whole oil burn thing is the biggest red herring on the internet these days. They are achieving this efficiency with the current restrictions on oil usage so if you think that a very small amount of oil makes that much power you must be smoking some good stuff and you should share it

[OO7]

The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.

Not sure about that. Since they also state that they are making as much or more power than the V10s. Which was >900hp.

Wuzak, I'm thinking the extra grunt comes from higher power (e.g qualification modes) modes that don't contribute to the overall efficiency.

[wuzak]

Mercedes confirming that they achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50% during dyno testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDJqTDXgtg

Also the video shows the 2017 power unit in remarkable detail...

Also confirms that MGUH -> MGUK is required to take BTE over 50%

[dren]

Mercedes confirming that they achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50% during dyno testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDJqTDXgtg

Also the video shows the 2017 power unit in remarkable detail...

Also confirms that MGUH -> MGUK is required to take BTE over 50%

I took it as the MGUH and MGUK are needed, not the direct transfer. That can go through the batteries, still. But then that's splitting hairs.

[SuperCNJ]

Mercedes confirming that they achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50% during dyno testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDJqTDXgtg

Also the video shows the 2017 power unit in remarkable detail...

I was thinking why they would risk divulging any secrets by showing their current power unit, albeit with quite a few areas covered up - but still, I suspect an F1 PU guru would probably be able to get something from that video?

The other thing is in that video, didn't they say they are using this engine in the Project One car? If so, what is stopping anyone from buying that car when it is released and dissecting it? I know they aren't releasing it until 2019, by which time the technology would have moved on, but I'm sure there will still be a lot of technology in it that will still be relevant and useful reference info for new manufacturers wanting to enter F1?

[PlatinumZealot]

Mercedes confirming that they achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50% during dyno testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDJqTDXgtg

Also the video shows the 2017 power unit in remarkable detail...

Also confirms that MGUH -> MGUK is required to take BTE over 50%

I took it as the MGUH and MGUK are needed, not the direct transfer. That can go through the batteries, still. But then that's splitting hairs.

Yup. Battery ( previously stored energy) does not count in thermodynamic efficiency calculation. It must be steady state.

These numbers from Mercedes do match up with calculations carried out on the forum. I am impressed by the beautiful people here! (donald trump voice).

It means Mercedes are just over 908hp from the ICE and MGUK in self sustain mode. We do not know how much of the capacity is used up by either the MGUH or the MGUK doing this... It all depends on the compressor efficiency and boost level.. But can anyone estimate how much available capacity is left in the MGUK to transfer power from the battery on top of the self sustain capacity? (i am too lazy).

[ringo]

Ballpark compressor drive power is 100 kW @ 4 bar abs, 70 kW @ 3 bar abs.

That's constant speed?

Remember that the compressor is never purely driven by electrical power. So if it needs 100kW its getting that from both exhuast energy and mgu power.

[ringo]

The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.

Yes i'm glad the truth is out. We've been seeing journos slapping on 30hp chunks onto the power speculation every 4 months. even claiming 1000hp has been surpassed.
I figured from calculations in 2014 that even attaining 750 hp from the ICE was very extreme. Mercedes would have to be working a special kind of witch craft.

[MrPotatoHead]

The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.

Yes i'm glad the truth is out. We've been seeing journos slapping on 30hp chunks onto the power speculation every 4 months. even claiming 1000hp has been surpassed.
I figured from calculations in 2014 that even attaining 750 hp from the ICE was very extreme. Mercedes would have to be working a special kind of witch craft.

It's all the oil they were burning obviously

I'm being sarcastic just so we are clear

[godlameroso]

50% achieved on the dyno.
That's around 830hp from 1240kW for fuel flow (from Andy Cowell a year or so ago).
Around 990hp all up.

actually 830 hp from combined fuel burn and whatever in-cylinder oil burn
so maybe less than 50% bte ?

plus oil burn ex-cylinder increasing turbine power

The whole oil burn thing is the biggest red herring on the internet these days. They are achieving this efficiency with the current restrictions on oil usage so if you think that a very small amount of oil makes that much power you must be smoking some good stuff and you should share it

Not quite f1 level but reactivity controlled combustion has been used as high as 9 bar bmep with good results. It works especially well with stratified combustion.

Mercedes said they got their combustion scheme from developments in diesel engines. If we go down the list of what's available in that type of combustion, vs what's compatible with petrol there aren't many techniques that fit the bill. Fuel stratification, and pre-chambers. The thing that ties it all together is manipulating the reactivity of the fuel. EGR is very limited as is air dilution, oil is effective at changing fuel reactivity, more effective still would be using two types of fuel. None of this is illegal and almost allowed by the regulations.

TJI is full blown fuel stratification, and I imagine the reason it's so hard to get working, as Renault and Honda have shown, is combustion instability. The reason for this is that they haven't learned how to control the reactivity of the pre chamber vs the main chamber.

If not managed properly, you could get the main chamber working but the pre chamber misfires, or vice versa. The big challenge is to get both pre and main chamber to ignite fully. Instead of or in addition to stratifying the equivalence ratios in the combustion chamber, why not alter the local reactivity of the fuel in the stratified regions for more fine control of the combustion process?