Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[McHonda]

Well the following is fiction and for entertainment purposes only:

The answer to your questions overall is yes to 1 and 2. #2 is where Mercedes is superior to everyone else at this time. #4 (you have #2 twice) is not that simple. The ES still may be powering K unit when TC is at full boost. Spec 4 focused on many areas including what you mentioned, but primarily a more efficient combustion process.

Now that everyone knows McLaren wanted out before the season started, I feel better that Honda didn't push McLaren harder into using Spec 4 at the start of this season. Someone asked why Spec 4 wasn't used at the start. It could have been run at winter testing. That you would have to ask Mr. Boullier, that was their decision.

I am surprised and not surprised at this split. I think it will be difficult for both McLaren and STR in 2018 as PU-chassis integration is not as easy as most people think. It's not just bolting up a PU to your chassis. I think STR will welcome the infusion of cash that Honda will bring. I am surprised that McLaren quit Honda so soon. To me this was really year one. Also I don't care what any company spokesperson from either side says, I have documentation that Honda did not want to go with the "Size Zero" concept for 2015. 2017 should have been 2015. Oh well, what's done is done. I could spend hours talking about how good or bad McLaren's chassis is based on race telemetry but now it's a moot point. Good luck to both STR and McLaren. Honda is on the right track.

Complete and utter nonsense. Spec 4, Illiens's Spec with the entire new ICE by the way, isn't even ready now. If it was they would have brought it to us to save the partnership they were desperate to keep going. Instead we got drips labelled 3.whatever.

I hope the STR fans enjoy the fairytales being spun around here next year but this is one thing I wont miss, sorry. I do need a new name though...

Why is this so hard to believe given that Mclaren: 1) asked and/or agreed to have Honda to enter a year earlier than was wise, 2) insisted on size 0 packaging, and 3) has not been producing great chassis for a while (i.e. their results at Monaco)?

It's hard to believe because it makes everything Hasegawa said about the different Specs since pre-season complete gibberish and nonsense. You can believe what you want of course. On the points...

1. Are you sure that wasn't a Mercedes request?. Either way it's a joint decision between McLaren and Honda, if Honda weren't ready they should have said.

2. Another joint venture. Honda said they were given no demands around size-zero. Size-zero itself was just a tag Ron came up with for what's always the preferable direction for design. The press did the rest.

3. This years chassis has been widely praised. Last years was deemed the third best by seasons end by rival engineers according to James Allen. (Only because Ferrari stopped developing theirs to be fair). Alonso wasn't at Monaco this year but he finished 5th last year.

Not sure what any of that has to do with a claim Spec 4 was available and ready in pre-season though, But Boullier and McLaren apparently preferred running around with the older vibrating wreck Spec they've been running instead. And Honda decided to play along with this weird play in pretending it didn't exist, presumably for sh*ts and giggles and enjoyment at being the laughing stock of F1 as there's no other reason for them to pretend Spec 4 wasn't ready when it apparently was.

Then they signed a man in April they didn't need to work on it as it was finished anyway and gathering dust (Illien) and proceeded to talk about Spec 3 and Spec 3 point this and that all year and even though they were desperate to avoid the embarrassing split by producing updates all year on the agreed dates they then somehow forgot they had the Spec 4 already raring to go just sitting on the ******* shelf all along and instead gave McLaren bits of it that were unreliable instead. Coz' reasons.

I would say you couldn't make it up but apparently you can. Or alternatively Spec 4 just isn't ready yet and the parts that could get signed off on and brought to track in time weren't reliable or impressive enough to convince McLaren to stay and a tough decision had to be made before next year was compromised as well as losing their star driver.

Tricky one.

[MrPotatoHead]

my opinion for 2021 mclaren must build they own engine in house ...and that must start now ....

McLaren dont have the money to do it and It would be crap if they tried. It takes tremendous amount of money experience past data libraries and infrastructure to build a competitive engine. Even if McLaren start now they would have to figure out who they need to hire and how to build an engine facility first... Even before those people up with an engine design. It is far easier for them to entice a new engine maker or just kneel down to mercedes.

If they were to make their "own" engines I'm sure they would jus thave Ricardo do it. That's who makes their road car engines. And they know a thing or two about engines.
That's a big (unlikely) if though.

Back on topic - how did the speed trap numbers look during friday running?

[Singabule]

Maybe Wazari can confirm or deny if Honda have been working towards these goals? And if spec 4.0 is close to achieving this?

1. The MGUH can provide 2MJ of power into the ES every lap
2. The MGUH can provide the MGUK with 120kW for every second the ICE is at or near WOT
2. The MGUK can provide ???kW (I believe 40kW) of power to keep the turbine spooled during the off throttle phase
3. The ES only needs to provide power for the MGUK when the turbine needs spooling and the ICE is not at full boost pressure

These must be the targets what you achieve is another story, this is the F1 formula for the engine. In other words the MGUK should be providing 120kW when ever the loud pedal is being pushed this in COMBINATION with the ICE is the amount of power to the gearbox/wheels. Hybrid engines are very complex and compound Turbo charging has many compromises, but running the MGUK throughout the lap is essential.

Well the following is fiction and for entertainment purposes only:

The answer to your questions overall is yes to 1 and 2. #2 is where Mercedes is superior to everyone else at this time. #4 (you have #2 twice) is not that simple. The ES still may be powering K unit when TC is at full boost. Spec 4 focused on many areas including what you mentioned, but primarily a more efficient combustion process.

Now that everyone knows McLaren wanted out before the season started, I feel better that Honda didn't push McLaren harder into using Spec 4 at the start of this season. Someone asked why Spec 4 wasn't used at the start. It could have been run at winter testing. That you would have to ask Mr. Boullier, that was their decision.

I am surprised and not surprised at this split. I think it will be difficult for both McLaren and STR in 2018 as PU-chassis integration is not as easy as most people think. It's not just bolting up a PU to your chassis. I think STR will welcome the infusion of cash that Honda will bring. I am surprised that McLaren quit Honda so soon. To me this was really year one. Also I don't care what any company spokesperson from either side says, I have documentation that Honda did not want to go with the "Size Zero" concept for 2015. 2017 should have been 2015. Oh well, what's done is done. I could spend hours talking about how good or bad McLaren's chassis is based on race telemetry but now it's a moot point. Good luck to both STR and McLaren. Honda is on the right track.

Some thought my post is idiotic, however wazari confirm my concern as well. Hmmm Lets pray RB give them blessing too, not via toxic strategy but pushing in good Way.

[ArcticWolfie]

my opinion for 2021 mclaren must build they own engine in house ...and that must start now ....

McLaren dont have the money to do it and It would be crap if they tried. It takes tremendous amount of money experience past data libraries and infrastructure to build a competitive engine. Even if McLaren start now they would have to figure out who they need to hire and how to build an engine facility first... Even before those people up with an engine design. It is far easier for them to entice a new engine maker or just kneel down to mercedes.

If they were to make their "own" engines I'm sure they would jus thave Ricardo do it. That's who makes their road car engines. And they know a thing or two about engines.
That's a big (unlikely) if though.

Back on topic - how did the speed trap numbers look during friday running?

lower mid field (297); about 2 or 3kph down from the RBRs who were in the middle of the list (300).

Don't think there's a second speed trap at the "longer" straight though.

[OviJohn]

Posted bu user Hasika on Autosport Forums:

Lets return to the race.we should have less meaningless discussion.

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... 3246&tt=-1

After investigation,Honda think its more like a batch of MGU-K shaft is not good,so they returned to the previous batch.They also made some modifition as precautionary measures.

Regarding the spilt with Mclaren,Hasegawa's quotes:

We committed to the relationship with Mclaren,and we want to win with Mclaren,it never changes.So what happened is very unfortunate.The biggest reason is the performace of our power unit,so as the honda F1 project leader,i feels very painful.

I talked with eric,we confirmed that we will still focus on the performance on the track in the rest of season.And we will not save the updates for next year.

...

I really hope they actually bring the infamous spec 4 to track this year. Regardless of the current partnership dramas, they need to verify the on track performance of that spec before winter testing 2018. They be insane not to or to "hold on to it" running on a dyno as it has been implied a few posts back (Ludricruous IMO)

#Winteriscoming

[harjan]

Shame the Sauber deal fell through. Perhaps with a STR gearbox in sight it would have happened.

Honda need more mileage. Let's hope the FIA steps in and helps them out with extra testing opportunities for instance.

[drunkf1fan]

Wazari, the thing I don't understand here is, you're saying Spec 4 was a possibility for the start of the season but I can't see how that can be true if they are still delaying Spec 4. Okay you seem to be implying that Spec 4 will have gone through a sensible amount of testing by the time it's introduced but considering the reliability of everything leading up to spec 4, does that make any difference?

I would have to believe Mclaren were told before the start of the season that Honda have two different versions of the engine, one (apparently) notably faster than the other, neither confirmed for reliability but presumably the upside of the slower engine is they expected it to be more reliable. I can understand Mclaren taking the decision to use the slower more reliable engine. But considering they weren't limited by engine regulations effectively, why didn't they try the spec 4 in preseason and compare them, or B, switch to this unreliable faster spec 4 after 2 races when it turns out the more reliable slower engine is completely unreliable.

I can't come up with a way that spec 4 could have been used at the start of the season but wasn't, wasn't used in preseason and wasn't switched to at any point in the season up till now. if it's unreliable yet faster, they had nothing to lose by using it sooner and Honda had nothing to lose bringing it sooner.

[DFX]

Wazari, the thing I don't understand here is, you're saying Spec 4 was a possibility for the start of the season but I can't see how that can be true if they are still delaying Spec 4. Okay you seem to be implying that Spec 4 will have gone through a sensible amount of testing by the time it's introduced but considering the reliability of everything leading up to spec 4, does that make any difference?

I would have to believe Mclaren were told before the start of the season that Honda have two different versions of the engine, one (apparently) notably faster than the other, neither confirmed for reliability but presumably the upside of the slower engine is they expected it to be more reliable. I can understand Mclaren taking the decision to use the slower more reliable engine. But considering they weren't limited by engine regulations effectively, why didn't they try the spec 4 in preseason and compare them, or B, switch to this unreliable faster spec 4 after 2 races when it turns out the more reliable slower engine is completely unreliable.

I can't come up with a way that spec 4 could have been used at the start of the season but wasn't, wasn't used in preseason and wasn't switched to at any point in the season up till now. if it's unreliable yet faster, they had nothing to lose by using it sooner and Honda had nothing to lose bringing it sooner.

I don't think that Mclaren interfere in the PU design decisions at all! This was a internal Honda decision as Wazari san may have hinted.

[HPD]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 3716959233 Honda corrects its words from the press conference.

"The goal is to be the best, behind the 3 dominators of the stage, with Toro Rosso"

Summary: be the fourth best team in 2018. (it's the goal, it does not have to be true)

[iichel]

maybe the MCL-32 chassis wasn't ready and/or suited to accommodate the PU spec 4.0?

[ArcticWolfie]

Speedtrap today @ FP3:

[drunkf1fan]

Wazari, the thing I don't understand here is, you're saying Spec 4 was a possibility for the start of the season but I can't see how that can be true if they are still delaying Spec 4. Okay you seem to be implying that Spec 4 will have gone through a sensible amount of testing by the time it's introduced but considering the reliability of everything leading up to spec 4, does that make any difference?

I would have to believe Mclaren were told before the start of the season that Honda have two different versions of the engine, one (apparently) notably faster than the other, neither confirmed for reliability but presumably the upside of the slower engine is they expected it to be more reliable. I can understand Mclaren taking the decision to use the slower more reliable engine. But considering they weren't limited by engine regulations effectively, why didn't they try the spec 4 in preseason and compare them, or B, switch to this unreliable faster spec 4 after 2 races when it turns out the more reliable slower engine is completely unreliable.

I can't come up with a way that spec 4 could have been used at the start of the season but wasn't, wasn't used in preseason and wasn't switched to at any point in the season up till now. if it's unreliable yet faster, they had nothing to lose by using it sooner and Honda had nothing to lose bringing it sooner.

I don't think that Mclaren interfere in the PU design decisions at all! This was a internal Honda decision as Wazari san may have hinted.

Wazari said Honda offered them the choice of engines for the start of this year and Mclaren were insistent on the one they've taken, but that implies Spec 4 was in a state they believed ready enough to hit the start of the season with which makes no sense in so far as how bad the other engine is and why spec 4 is continually being pushed back. If Spec 4 was an option for the start of the season why wasn't it switched to very early on when the other option proved useless in performance and reliability.

Actually now I think about it, when did Illien start working with Honda, I thought it was earlier this year and Spec 4 is supposed to be the first engine he's had input on, as such I simply can't believe Spec 4 was an option at the start of the season.

Now that everyone knows McLaren wanted out before the season started, I feel better that Honda didn't push McLaren harder into using Spec 4 at the start of this season. Someone asked why Spec 4 wasn't used at the start. It could have been run at winter testing. That you would have to ask Mr. Boullier, that was their decision.

That being one of the responses from Wazari on spec 4 being an option at the start, it seems Illien stopping working with Renault was reported in Feb 2017, reports he was working with Honda started in March 2017, rumoured strongly everywhere now is that Spec 4 has Illien working on it and will be the basis of the 2018 engine combined with the fact that Spec 4 still isn't ready suggests there is zero chance it was an option for the start of 2017 yet we have Wazari saying it was an option and Mclaren turned it down. Mclaren turning down a supposedly faster engine only makes sense if they are told another engine is slower but more reliable, the second that engine proves to have awful reliability there is no viable reason not to use Spec 4 if it's ready which is yet another indication it wasn't ready.

[ziggy]

I didn't want to write about this but enough is enough. I don't know who this Wazari guy really is, but definitely not what many (me included) thought he would be. GoranF1 hinted about this at the winter testing allready, offcourse I didn't believe it at that time (here I have to appologise to GoranF1).

Let's only look at his last post's. They couldn't be more wrong. He stated no spec 4 this year. Well, 2 or 3 days later we know the opposite. He stated the problems were mainly from ERS, well guess what, Zak Brown stated just days later that the problem is friction. Well the last statement from Wazari, about Mcl also were bad on their part (the chassis) is prooven wrong. The FP3 in Singapur just finished and I'm conviced they have a great chassis (one of the best actually).

That said, I don't believe anybody anymore, untill I see facts with my own eyes. The info Wazari is posting here can be found on japanese and autosport forums (before it is posted here). I checked that (several times!) when GoranF1 started with his doubts and it is true.

P.s. my post was a reply to a post written by Webber2011, but it got deleted in the meantime.

[Steven]

Can we get back to the actual topic please instead of discussing the credibility of members?

What people believe is usually fuelled by what others believe. It often doesn't relate to the truth.

So, you all believe whatever you want to, but please respect one another, and don't act like you want me to get my whip out.

[DFX]

Wazari said Honda offered them the choice of engines for the start of this year and Mclaren were insistent on the one they've taken, but that implies Spec 4 was in a state they believed ready enough to hit the start of the season with which makes no sense in so far as how bad the other engine is and why spec 4 is continually being pushed back. If Spec 4 was an option for the start of the season why wasn't it switched to very early on when the other option proved useless in performance and reliability.

Actually now I think about it, when did Illien start working with Honda, I thought it was earlier this year and Spec 4 is supposed to be the first engine he's had input on, as such I simply can't believe Spec 4 was an option at the start of the season.

That being one of the responses from Wazari on spec 4 being an option at the start, it seems Illien stopping working with Renault was reported in Feb 2017, reports he was working with Honda started in March 2017, rumoured strongly everywhere now is that Spec 4 has Illien working on it and will be the basis of the 2018 engine combined with the fact that Spec 4 still isn't ready suggests there is zero chance it was an option for the start of 2017 yet we have Wazari saying it was an option and Mclaren turned it down. Mclaren turning down a supposedly faster engine only makes sense if they are told another engine is slower but more reliable, the second that engine proves to have awful reliability there is no viable reason not to use Spec 4 if it's ready which is yet another indication it wasn't ready.

I might be wrong, but I remember quite clearly Wazari san saying that the actual spec and the spec 4 were a subject of a dispute between the teams that developed each one, Wazari involved in the development of the former. We hadnt the information at any time that Mclaren refuse Spec 4 in the start of the season, quite the contrary, this information was bring on in the latest weeks only.