2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

[Phil]

I dont get the milimetre scrutineering of Verstappens movement given it was Vettel who had the trajectory that was pointing across the entire tarmac.

Have anyone of you arguing in Vettels favor begun to contemplate what would have happened if Verstappen hadnt been there? He would have hit Kimi.

Vettel had a bad start. Max a tad bit better. Blocking moves on the run to the first corner are always dangerous, especially when you dont have the pace to clear the cars around you.

If you go back to 2011, i remember quite well how often Vettel would chop others (especially Webber) after the start to protect his position. Its okay i guess to do if you are ahead, but clearly it cant work if someone gets alongside, in this case Kimi and partially Max who was too close.

[Restomaniac]

I dont get the milimetre scrutineering of Verstappens movement given it was Vettel who had the trajectory that was pointing across the entire tarmac.

Have anyone of you arguing in Vettels favor begun to contemplate what would have happened if Verstappen hadnt been there? He would have hit Kimi.

Vettel had a bad start. Max a tad bit better. Blocking moves on the run to the first corner are always dangerous, especially when you dont have the pace to clear the cars around you.

If you go back to 2011, i remember quite well how often Vettel would chop others (especially Webber) after the start to protect his position. Its okay i guess to do if you are ahead, but clearly it cant work if someone gets alongside, in this case Kimi and partially Max who was too close.

On the point of your second paragraph I agree. Vet was looking right. No doubt transfixed by the Hamilton's good start and his poor start. That isn't a dig as we can all get drawn into being transfixed unconsciously.
However as you say if Ves gets out the way Vet hits Rai half a second later.

[Bill_Kar]

If you go back to 2011, i remember quite well how often Vettel would chop others (especially Webber) after the start to protect his position. Its okay i guess to do if you are ahead, but clearly it cant work if someone gets alongside, in this case Kimi and partially Max who was too close.

Well Schumi did it all the time, even Hamilton in Monza. But you got to know that you are clearly ahead, otherwise there is no point you can only lose if you push it too much and that's enough punishment for Vettel.It certainly wasn't a four-times world champion move.

[iotar__]

Watch the damn thing:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2rfpis0.jpg

Media are so annoying https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/moto ... el-954767/
Leaving a bad pun aside, these are dishonest salesmen posing as F1 journalists. Is Verstappen part of "Motorsport debrief"? I wonder what Horner thought about this so we can put it in our impartial headlines.

Try telling your co-worker since these are basically Red Bull's press releases:
- you can't cover 2 cars at the same time
- when you zig zag you lose time and places
- sudden change of direction while accelerating at the start makes you lose control
- when you put a car into the path of other to block him and prevent overtake you cause collisions.

[CBeck113]

Quick sanity check after 15 pages: how would each of you react if it was Hamilton instead of Vettel? Try to be honest with yourselves...

[SiLo]

I think this shows quite nicely the pincer move by the Ferraris on Verstappen. He likely didn't see Kimi until it was too late because he would have been paying attention to Vettel coming across the track in front of him.

[Restomaniac]

Quick sanity check after 15 pages: how would each of you react if it was Hamilton instead of Vettel? Try to be honest with yourselves...

If he had done what Vet did I'd call him an idiot after all the hard work of getting pole and the fact that he couldn't afford a DNF.

[drunkf1fan]

Watch the damn thing:
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2rfpis0.jpg
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2rfpis0.jpg

Media are so annoying https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/moto ... el-954767/
Leaving a bad pun aside, these are dishonest salesmen posing as F1 journalists. Is Verstappen part of "Motorsport debrief"? I wonder what Horner thought about this so we can put it in our impartial headlines.

Try telling your co-worker since these are basically Red Bull's press releases:
- you can't cover 2 cars at the same time
- when you zig zag you lose time and places
- sudden change of direction while accelerating at the start makes you lose control
- when you put a car into the path of other to block him and prevent overtake you cause collisions.

lol, lets crop the gif to try to not show how Vettel has a massive and sudden change of direction... which you apparently believe causes a loss of control. It's funny how Vettel with the biggest change in direction didn't lose control and neither did Verstappen, while claiming changing directly makes you lose control.

The last part is accurate, but even with the crop to try to hide how far Vettel moved over, even with a large part of his move missing, you can still plainly see in the gif how much further Vettel moved to try to block and yes that is exactly why there was a collision.

[Phil]

https://i.imgur.com/yToQ4f9.jpg

I think this shows quite nicely the pincer move by the Ferraris on Verstappen. He likely didn't see Kimi until it was too late because he would have been paying attention to Vettel coming across the track in front of him.

I really dont want to nitpick, and many thanks for the illustration... but, Vettels line is not quite correct. Due to the angle, you have to take two points of the car of similar height to get the correct trajectory.

In reality, Vettels car was pointing more to the right into the path of both Max and Kimi than the line suggests.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Watch the damn thing:
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2rfpis0.jpg

Max wasn't moving to right, but he was moving to catch the racing line. Remember, he was starting from 2nd and the racing line was where the polester was starting. It's a natural move to line up behind the polester. Besides, he had to cover Ric who was starting behind the polester and was on racing line. When Max saw Vettel coming hard across, he had no choice to but move left. His focus was completely on Vettel and Kimi got a brilliant start and by the time he could realize, was ahead of him.

Combination of multiple things brought together the crash.
1. Vettel got less than average start and went to cover Max.
2. Max got average start and was lining up to go behind Vettel, but could see him cutting aggressively and had to move left. He would have been damned if he wouldn't have moved left and blamed for screwing up the race leader.
3. Kimi got brilliant start and didn't anticipate Max moving to left. He thought he can pass by.

[Phil]

I don't get the logic, why Vettel or any other driver on pole is entitled to cut across. He isn't, certainly not when he has a bad start. Just like during any other phase of a Grand Prix, when on a straight, a driver defending his position is entitled to do one move, but only when no car or part of a competitors car is alongside.

The whole thing just seemed rather desperate. If he had a great start, there had been no issue. The fact that he didn't and knew full well that Max was moving alongside him made that cut across a rather desperate attempt of trying to hold on to a position that was already lost.

I appreciate that there was no further penalty and that the crash was deemed a racing incident - an incident caused by an unfortunate chain of events. But I also do think that one driver alone decided the faith of all 3 of them with that defining chop to the left. Had that not happened, we would have probably seen all 3 cars make it around those first few corners without damage. Kimi would have probably come out in the lead, although at that angle, it remains to be seen if one of the other drivers would not have crashed into his sides, or perhaps would have gained an advantage by carrying more speed through the corner to see either Max or Vettel get in front again later.

[Vasconia]

I appreciate that there was no further penalty and that the crash was deemed a racing incident - an incident caused by an unfortunate chain of events. But I also do think that one driver alone decided the faith of all 3 of them with that defining chop to the left. Had that not happened, we would have probably seen all 3 cars make it around those first few corners without damage. Kimi would have probably come out in the lead, although at that angle, it remains to be seen if one of the other drivers would not have crashed into his sides, or perhaps would have gained an advantage by carrying more speed through the corner to see either Max or Vettel get in front again later.

Three cars can´t pass that corner alongside. Someone should have braked earlier and let the position. If not we would have watched another incident.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I appreciate that there was no further penalty and that the crash was deemed a racing incident - an incident caused by an unfortunate chain of events. But I also do think that one driver alone decided the faith of all 3 of them with that defining chop to the left. Had that not happened, we would have probably seen all 3 cars make it around those first few corners without damage. Kimi would have probably come out in the lead, although at that angle, it remains to be seen if one of the other drivers would not have crashed into his sides, or perhaps would have gained an advantage by carrying more speed through the corner to see either Max or Vettel get in front again later.

Three cars can´t pass that corner alongside. Someone should have braked earlier and let the position. If not we would have watched another incident.

The incident happened halfway through to the first turn and you won't expect a racing driver to break and back off. If it was around 10 metres from turn 1, yes. But definitely not at midway through. There were 2 drivers who had nothing to lose and one that had everything to lose. Who do you expect to play it cautiously?

[outer_bongolia]

Well, I will suggest we also look at the second collision between Kimi and Verstappen (and Alonso the Unlucky). It looked like Kimi did not try to stop (even accelerated a bit) until he took Verstappen out. Would anyone comment on that?

[i70q7m7ghw]

Well, I will suggest we also look at the second collision between Kimi and Verstappen (and Alonso the Unlucky). It looked like Kimi did not try to stop (even accelerated a bit) until he took Verstappen out. Would anyone comment on that?

He was just sliding on the plank at that point, on a wet track he had no chance to stopping it. If you watch the onboard he had the thing on full lock trying to make turn 1, no revs so he wasn't applying the throttle. So thats that cock and ball theory out the window. NEXT.