World car production

[dumrick]

and stipulated that an immigrant MAY work for 40% of the minimum wage, you would quickly find yourself with 20 million workers that work for .95 euros/hour

Have you ever heard about human rights? Or is it not a problem for you for two people living in the same country to have different rights? Furthermore, low-cost is always a short-term advantage. There's always somewhere else in the world where people can do the same for less.

[Conceptual]

and stipulated that an immigrant MAY work for 40% of the minimum wage, you would quickly find yourself with 20 million workers that work for .95 euros/hour

Have you ever heard about human rights? Or is it not a problem for you for two people living in the same country to have different rights? Furthermore, low-cost is always a short-term advantage. There's always somewhere else in the world where people can do the same for less.

I am all about human rights, but I guess you would rather your tax dollars be spent on welfare for those currently ILLEGAL immigrants. I, for one, would rather give those same PEOPLE the opportunity to become LEGAL citizens, pay taxes, and educate themselves so they can demand more pay. I said that they "MAY" work for 40% of minimum wage, which is what they get paid illegaly now, and build themselves from there.

I believe that my stance is much more in line with showing compassionate human respect much more than what your statement implies. In my view, everyone wins. The immigrants, the American taxpayer, and the manufacturing sector resurgance that this country lost, not to mention the re-valuation of the American dollar.

But, as you say, that is not in the best interest of anyone, because you say so, right?

Chris

[dumrick]

But, as you say, that is not in the best interest of anyone, because you say so, right?

I understood the good intentions on your proposal, but that kind of policy would be another way of South African-style apartheid - to recognize the existence of first rate and second rate citizens.

To have a dual minimum wage policy would be socially unsustainable, as every US-born unemployed would blaim his situation on unfair competition coming from the "new citizens". Furthermore, legalizing people consists basically in recognizing they have the exact same rights as any other person in the same country. Furthermore, you have illegals working for little BECAUSE they are illegals: they are in such a position of fragility that they are abused by scummy businessmen. If they weren't fearing for their safety and survival, they would be in better negotiating positions and out in the market looking for jobs like everybody else, increasing their market value and, in the end, being paid like everybody else.
I hope you understand me now - if lowering minimum wages would be the solution for the industry, then it should apply for everyone in equal terms, to have as close as possible a fair market. But I doubt the unions would go for it (or if anyone really thinks it is possible to compete in price with China, where there are seldom no contracts between workers and employers and people work for a meal).

[donskar]

Conceptual wrote:
Unfortunately, we live in a disposable society, so crap manufacturing is acceptable. If there is a market, there will always be a product. There is always a market for the cheapest, and there is always a market for the best.

Well, generally, but with numerous exceptions. I am heartened by the fate of three brands that entered the US market within our life times: Fiat, then Yugo, then most recently Daewoo. (And just about every car built in GB.)

Fiats were great fun, but horribly unreliable. They were driven out of the US market.

Yugos had initial success because they were so cheap, but their ghastly quality killed them.

Daewoos were far superior to either, but no match for the competition. They failed, then were bought by GM and resurrected as the Chevy Aveo (dust to dust, crap to crap).

Currently Hyundai is the brand Toyota most fears (I work at a Toyota dealership). They are building very good cars, but (fortunately for Toyota) still suffer from the lingering after-effects of their earlier, miserable products.

Seems we've seen a cycle of "low cost" producers: Japan, then Korea, now India and China. I suppose Africa will be next(?)

One wonders what Tata will do with Jaguar.

[Ray]

If they weren't fearing for their safety and survival, they would be in better negotiating positions and out in the market looking for jobs like everybody else, increasing their market value and, in the end, being paid like everybody else.

Not true. Most if not all are paid better than legal employees. One, because they aren't taxable so it's cheaper to pay them under the table a few dollars more then a legal citizen. Two, because if they abused them pay wise they would go find someone else who won't abuse them, so they employ them competitively, though illegally. They don't get their name out there because if they did they'd be caught (obviously) and they couldn't send all that money back to Mexico. Which kills our economy. But it's not the only erason our dollar is so worthless, that the Federal Reserves fault.

My biggest problem is that they have no responsiblities as a non-citizen. If I walked into a hospital bleeding from the head they'd make me fill out an insurance form of some sort and then wait in line. But a an illegal does the same, they go out of the way to provide a translator for them when they should speak English, they have no paperwork to fill out, and they will get free care. Not to mention if they hit me in their car without insurance I can't sue. They get away with that scot free. But above all that, they come here waving their flags and screaming in Spanish demanding that I cater to their needs, they demand the same rights, they demand that they get healthcare. All without being a citizen or paying taxes like me. So they can get bent as far as I'm concerned. They have kids, automatic citizen. The parents are still illegals, but who pays for that kids education? I do. It's called taxes.

As a side note, a guy murdered a girl in North Carolina, fled to his native Mexico and the government there refused to search for him or hand him over because there was a charge against him that could result in the death penalty. A murderer. Protected by a government that aloows thousands of it's citizens to abuse anothers government programs and help. Telling us we can't have him. --- them.


Back on topic, the headlights I bought were generic. Not a specific manufacturer. I understand the chance of improved quality is there, but I won't be suckered into buy that ripoff crap again. The Chinese plagarize everything they come into contact with. From now on, if possible, I will buy American. The replacement headlights from Chevrolet are $277 each, but you get the quality that comes with the price.

[Conceptual]

If they weren't fearing for their safety and survival, they would be in better negotiating positions and out in the market looking for jobs like everybody else, increasing their market value and, in the end, being paid like everybody else.

Not true. Most if not all are paid better than legal employees. One, because they aren't taxable so it's cheaper to pay them under the table a few dollars more then a legal citizen. Two, because if they abused them pay wise they would go find someone else who won't abuse them, so they employ them competitively, though illegally. They don't get their name out there because if they did they'd be caught (obviously) and they couldn't send all that money back to Mexico. Which kills our economy. But it's not the only erason our dollar is so worthless, that the Federal Reserves fault.

My biggest problem is that they have no responsiblities as a non-citizen. If I walked into a hospital bleeding from the head they'd make me fill out an insurance form of some sort and then wait in line. But a an illegal does the same, they go out of the way to provide a translator for them when they should speak English, they have no paperwork to fill out, and they will get free care. Not to mention if they hit me in their car without insurance I can't sue. They get away with that scot free. But above all that, they come here waving their flags and screaming in Spanish demanding that I cater to their needs, they demand the same rights, they demand that they get healthcare. All without being a citizen or paying taxes like me. So they can get bent as far as I'm concerned. They have kids, automatic citizen. The parents are still illegals, but who pays for that kids education? I do. It's called taxes.

As a side note, a guy murdered a girl in North Carolina, fled to his native Mexico and the government there refused to search for him or hand him over because there was a charge against him that could result in the death penalty. A murderer. Protected by a government that aloows thousands of it's citizens to abuse anothers government programs and help. Telling us we can't have him. --- them.


Back on topic, the headlights I bought were generic. Not a specific manufacturer. I understand the chance of improved quality is there, but I won't be suckered into buy that ripoff crap again. The Chinese plagarize everything they come into contact with. From now on, if possible, I will buy American. The replacement headlights from Chevrolet are $277 each, but you get the quality that comes with the price.

+1

See Dumrick, maybe you should try living here, reading our news, and watch the once great country get raped daily by these people before you spew rhetoric about what they "deserve".

Trust me, what I stated is FAR FAR more preferrable to what is on the table, and that is absolute amnesty. Give them EVERY BENEFIT without looking at what flooding the minimum wage range pay would do.

To be honest, I could sleep very well at night if there were American sweat shops cranking out Billions of dollars in annual revenue for this country, and letting those that have had a free ride in this counrty for the last 25+ years do the work at a discounted rate is a VERY beautiful thing.

hris

[Ray]

Do you guys think I should just deal with the crappy quality ones, or go with the factory replacements? The factory ones are about the price of two cheapo ones. The difference is astounding though. I still haven't decided on which ones to get, and the originals are really really faded.

[donskar]

Ray,

Do you guys think I should just deal with the crappy quality ones, or go with the factory replacements? The factory ones are about the price of two cheapo ones. The difference is astounding though. I still haven't decided on which ones to get, and the originals are really really faded.

Aren't you worth quality?

Get the good stuff.

[Conceptual]

Ray,

Do you guys think I should just deal with the crappy quality ones, or go with the factory replacements? The factory ones are about the price of two cheapo ones. The difference is astounding though. I still haven't decided on which ones to get, and the originals are really really faded.

Aren't you worth quality?

Get the good stuff.

Wont the OEM (more expensive) replacements just do the same thing?

Is there an even BETTER quality aftermarket option?

Chris

[mx_tifoso]

Ray and Conceptual have hit me where it hurts the most, I'm sorry to say that each one of you has lost my complete and utter respect, if that was ever of any worth to you at all.

And while I myself am not an illegal immigrant, since I have have both Mexican(birth) and American citizenship(naturalized), pretty much my entire family has been in the actual so-called shoes of an illegal immigrant here in the United States of America. And to hear all of these words coming from either of you, both of which whom I had respect and admiration towards, has really hurt me.

I want you guys, and everyone that reads my words to know, that I and many of my beloved family members are living the fabled "American Dream". And if God allows me to and continues guiding me in this lifetime, I will become the first college graduate in my immediate family, since the the life my parents had growing up never gave them the opportunity to do so. I thank God with all my heart for leading my family to this marvelous country, since what we "have" now would have most likely been out of reach considering the economic situation back home. Not that we were "poor", regardless of what many of you may automatically think, but taking into account various ecomonic crisis that plagued my country of birth over the past few decades my family was better off coming to the U.S in search of a "better" life. And every single time someone offends an honorable and hard working illegal immigrant who has come to this country searching for the many opportunities towards a better life, they also offend my father, who travelled to America more than twenty years ago as an "illegal immigrant" so that his future family could have a better life as well.

And so here we are, legal and all, living happily ever after, if you can call it that, since the thought of being "home" haunts our minds every single day that passes by...

I leave it at that at least for the time being, since my emotions have now turned to pure and simple dissapointment.

Best Regards to all,
MX_tifosi
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I sincerely hope that this is the first, and last, time that something in this forum brings me to tears. Although maybe I shouldn't share this fact with you, but I have to be completely honest about what this subject brings about in a man such as myself. And after working all day, from sun up to sun down with the amazing man I call my father, I click on my favourites tab labeled "The Formula One Reference- F1Technical.net" to quickly find this subject being brought up in my one and only refuge from life. It's extremely saddening and disapointing to say the least.

[Ciro Pabón]

Sorry about the cowboy in the graph, it includes me, Checkered.

One thing is for sure: NO more threads that show even a hint of comments on national customs or achievements from this newbie moderator.

[checkered]

I sincerely hope that this is the first, and last, time that something in this forum brings me to tears. Although maybe I shouldn't share this fact with you, but I have to be completely honest about what this subject brings about in a man such as myself. And after working all day, from sun up to sun down with the amazing man I call my father, I click on my favourites tab labeled "The Formula One Reference- F1Technical.net" to quickly find this subject being brought up in my one and only refuge from life. It's extremely saddening and disapointing to say the least.

You have made

your point very eloquently indeed, mx_tifosi. There shouldn't be an instance when imperfect perceptions, rules and laws preclude the humanity we share. You have done well indeed in making your emotions and experiences unequivocally known. It is only through communication that we can get positive outcomes from the challenges we share. I'm only too familiar with the "immigration" debate that surfaces, time and again, in many societies. The US hasn't been spared from incendiary comments recently, mostly for short-term political gain. I truly hope that Ray and Conceptual can recognise that the US is stronger and safer for all your families' efforts and dreams. In any case I'm certain that your post has resonated through this board. Homes come in many shapes and sizes, and I hope you'll continue to regard F1T as such for a long time to come. In fact, you're of great value here as you have a unique perspective on what making a home somewhere requires.

Sorry about the cowboy in the graph, it includes me, Checkered.

I don't know what you're sorry about, Ciro, since this is my first post on this thread.

[Conceptual]

Ray and Conceptual have hit me where it hurts the most, I'm sorry to say that each one of you has lost my complete and utter respect, if that was ever of any worth to you at all.

And while I myself am not an illegal immigrant, since I have have both Mexican(birth) and American citizenship(naturalized), pretty much my entire family has been in the actual so-called shoes of an illegal immigrant here in the United States of America. And to hear all of these words coming from either of you, both of which whom I had respect and admiration towards, has really hurt me.

I want you guys, and everyone that reads my words to know, that I and many of my beloved family members are living the fabled "American Dream". And if God allows me to and continues guiding me in this lifetime, I will become the first college graduate in my immediate family, since the the life my parents had growing up never gave them the opportunity to do so. I thank God with all my heart for leading my family to this marvelous country, since what we "have" now would have most likely been out of reach considering the economic situation back home. Not that we were "poor", regardless of what many of you may automatically think, but taking into account various ecomonic crisis that plagued my country of birth over the past few decades my family was better off coming to the U.S in search of a "better" life. And every single time someone offends an honorable and hard working illegal immigrant who has come to this country searching for the many opportunities towards a better life, they also offend my father, who travelled to America more than twenty years ago as an "illegal immigrant" so that his future family could have a better life as well.

And so here we are, legal and all, living happily ever after, if you can call it that, since the thought of being "home" haunts our minds every single day that passes by...

I leave it at that at least for the time being, since my emotions have now turned to pure and simple dissapointment.

Best Regards to all,
MX_tifosi
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I sincerely hope that this is the first, and last, time that something in this forum brings me to tears. Although maybe I shouldn't share this fact with you, but I have to be completely honest about what this subject brings about in a man such as myself. And after working all day, from sun up to sun down with the amazing man I call my father, I click on my favourites tab labeled "The Formula One Reference- F1Technical.net" to quickly find this subject being brought up in my one and only refuge from life. It's extremely saddening and disapointing to say the least.

Sorry to lose your respect friend, but if you think about what I proposed a bit longer, you might break through to enlightenment and realize that what I said would only HELP MORE PEOPLE IMMIGRATE LEGALLY not to mention EDUCATE THEMSELVES BETTER as well as USING THEIR NEW EDUCATION TO DEMAND HIGHER WAGES and STOP THE TAX DRAIN THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS PUT ON THE US WELFARE SYSTEM.

God knows that I am an evil man unworthy of respect for coming up with a solution that helps everyone, and revalues their inflated currency that would be adopted. It was immigrants that BUILT this country by working their way through, and often times at a substandard rate. IE: Chinese railroad workers as well as Polish meat packers. God, if it wasn't for those amazing individuals commiting their entire soul into making their new home the greatest place in the world, I don't know what I'd be doing now. Probably still waiting for the bureaucracy to issue the correct permits.

I guess your view of living the American dream is truly American. You want everything for nothing. No work, no sacrifice, and have welfare provide everything for you, right? Because that is what you mean by not agreeing with me?

Chris

[Carlos]

"I guess your view of living the American dream is truly American. You want everything for nothing. No work, no sacrifice, and have welfare provide everything for you, right? Because that is what you mean by not agreeing with me?" Conceptual

I read mx_tifosi's post and it doesn't say that, he said hard work and the value of education, seeking a better life for a family, and his admiration of an America he described as a 'marvelous country.' Is it a good idea to presume what God knows or mx_tifosi thinks?

[Conceptual]

"I guess your view of living the American dream is truly American. You want everything for nothing. No work, no sacrifice, and have welfare provide everything for you, right? Because that is what you mean by not agreeing with me?" Conceptual

I read mx_tifosi's post and it doesn't say that, he said hard work and the value of education, seeking a better life for a family, and his admiration of an America he described as a 'marvelous country.' Is it a good idea to presume what God knows or mx_tifosi thinks?

Carlos,

Then why would it disappoint him reading what I wrote earlier? That is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I am advocating giving the immigrants more incentive to come here legally, a better education, and relieving the drain that illegal immigration brings to this country. If what you are saying is true, why wouldnt he want what I suggested so the rest of his family tree could come here quickly and follow with him. Instead he shoots at me for trying to give a credible, reasonable and more realistic answer to a VERY complicated question.

My wife has a masters in Social Work, and deals with this issue EVERY SINGLE DAY. She was reading what I wrote as I wrote it, and agrees to the point that she is submitting it to the State of Pennsylvania for consideration, and possible adoption nationwide.

If it was bad, I don't think that she would like it so much. Trust me, we have discussed the Illegal immigrant issue quite extensively, and she has studied it in-depth. SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE and my suggestion is better than shooting people at the border... Possibly mx-tifosi's relatives.

Why dislike MY solution when it is what he wants in the end anyways?

Chris

PS: Is it because Barack Obama didn't say it first???