Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[mclaren111]

Is there a Renault Engine thread ?

[restless]

So if the spec 4 is coming in Suzuka wil they take penalty for it at Sepang?

I think they'll take penalties in Suzuka, after Malaysia there's only 5 races left, they'll want to introduce and test it as soon as possible. If it's as big a step forward as they think it is, it'll be relatively straightforward to score points. Then they can focus on getting good results in COTA, Mexico, Brazil, and Abu Dhabi.

I think the plan is use on friday in Mexico, confirm usability, then use in Brazil and Abu Dhabi
they no longer fight for points in 2017...

[PlatinumZealot]

Is it legal to add oil to the petrol they use?

No but that would make the petrol crap.

Anyway on the oil burning.. It is something that would be invisible out the tailpipe. The oil fumes burn completely in these engines. You know, TJI lean burn burn and all that.

Some would say crap, others would say change it's properties. Good or bad are relative terms, better to deal with cause and effect. In other words what does oil do to gasoline? Why would this feature be harmful, and would it still be harmful with more precise control of the combustion process?

The word oil could mean a broad spectrum of stuff, but I think he means engine oil. (synthetic or mineral?) Interestingly fuel injector cleaner is a thick oil smelling like kerosene. You can only add maybe a 100 grams to 20 gallons or else it would mess your engine up lol... For engine oil.. I know that Truckers add engine oil to the diesel sometimes. I forget why. Anyway, I just remembered there is a thread for this!

[HPD]

Masashi Yamamoto

- “The regulations go on until 2020 so we still have three years and we want to show our improvements in the technology. We want to show Honda’s potential,” Yamamoto insists. “That is very important for us, to let the world see how we will progress and how we can make it a success.”

- “First, [Toro Rosso team principal] Mr. Tost knows a lot about Japan. He understands the culture and it’s a good communication that we have,” Yamamoto says. “We have seen that they also have a young factory and are growing, which for Honda is very important because we can work with the same mentality and have the same approach. It is a new start with a team with a similar mindset to move forwards together."

- “Toro Rosso and Honda will start working together immediately and for the coming years. However, before that we have the rest of the 2017 season to complete with McLaren, so a good communication between us is still very important, as well as a good performance in the remaining races."

- “Working with McLaren, I’ve realised that they are a very big company which is very systematic. It’s obviously very strong because of that but at the same time they can find it hard to adapt to change."

- “Compare that to Toro Rosso, it is a company that is growing. It is very important for us to work in partnership together, heading towards the same goal. So for us we are very much looking forward to being able to work closer."

- “Take this for an example: If we compare both teams with different cuisines, let’s say McLaren is a very sophisticated French cuisine, that’s the way it is. Then Toro Rosso is more like a countryside, homemade delicious stew where you can add new ingredients. We’re excited to do that.”

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/ya ... rosso.html

Obviously Yamamoto is trying to say something.
What changes does Yamamoto speak?

if it is true that spec 4 was ready to use a long time ago. This could be the reason. (this is pure speculation)

[hemichromis]

Masashi Yamamoto



http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/ya ... rosso.html

Obviously Yamamoto is trying to say something.
What changes does Yamamoto speak?

if it is true that spec 4 was ready to use a long time ago. This could be the reason. (this is pure speculation)

I still find it hard to believe Mclaren would reject this spec because an extra few kg. Surely after 2 years even if Honda added 20 in wouldn't matter as long as it came with power.

I was a real fan of the Mclaren-Honda project. I feel the Honda big bosses coming to Singapore was a big show of strength and determination. Next year should be good!

[etusch]

Masashi Yamamoto



http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/ya ... rosso.html

Obviously Yamamoto is trying to say something.
What changes does Yamamoto speak?

if it is true that spec 4 was ready to use a long time ago. This could be the reason. (this is pure speculation)

I still find it hard to believe Mclaren would reject this spec because an extra few kg. Surely after 2 years even if Honda added 20 in wouldn't matter as long as it came with power.

I was a real fan of the Mclaren-Honda project. I feel the Honda big bosses coming to Singapore was a big show of strength and determination. Next year should be good!

Honda used HCCI years ago. It's different because of turbo and direct injection but at the end they have experience about that combustion process. I believe they can use tji or something like that whenever they want to use it. My theory is that electric generation issue prevent them to use tji but the cause might be McLaren's itself. I think Honda boss didn't say that just for blaming McLaren. It seems that McLaren resist Honda's some claims which we don't know what they are or what it is.
I always thought that McLaren car could cause some engine issues. Maybe we could see same engine working more reliable on another team's car because of different installation. If this were happened McLaren couldn't say there's no reliablity.
At the end those are assumptions and we could never know reality about that.

[ziggy]

No but that would make the petrol crap.

Anyway on the oil burning.. It is something that would be invisible out the tailpipe. The oil fumes burn completely in these engines. You know, TJI lean burn burn and all that.

Some would say crap, others would say change it's properties. Good or bad are relative terms, better to deal with cause and effect. In other words what does oil do to gasoline? Why would this feature be harmful, and would it still be harmful with more precise control of the combustion process?

The word oil could mean a broad spectrum of stuff, but I think he means engine oil. (synthetic or mineral?) Interestingly fuel injector cleaner is a thick oil smelling like kerosene. You can only add maybe a 100 grams to 20 gallons or else it would mess your engine up lol... For engine oil.. I know that Truckers add engine oil to the diesel sometimes. I forget why. Anyway, I just remembered there is a thread for this!

Exactly. Fuel injector cleaner is just 2T oil. Works, tested. They could just run some variation of 2T oil and get a notable performance boost. Also many people are reporting a funny smell from some cars. That would be it...

In qualifying it will still be possible to use that boost, unless FIA makes some new rules. Thats why Honda is stil developing it this late.

[gofast182]

So if the spec 4 is coming in Suzuka wil they take penalty for it at Sepang?

I think they'll take penalties in Suzuka, after Malaysia there's only 5 races left, they'll want to introduce and test it as soon as possible. If it's as big a step forward as they think it is, it'll be relatively straightforward to score points. Then they can focus on getting good results in COTA, Mexico, Brazil, and Abu Dhabi.

IMHO it is absolutely critical they get Spec. 4 on track this year and get data for a FULL race weekend.

To do this they should introduce it for Friday practice at COTA or Mexico (if they can't do it sooner). This will give them Mexico or Brazil to make any last-minute design tweaks (and take another penalty if needed). Then they run it for a full race weekend in Abu Dhabi with no penalties and collect a lot of critical on-track data.

The reasons are numerous. Not the least of which is salvaging their own reputation ahead of winter testing with a new team when all eyes will be on them. Neither Honda or McLaren has anything to lose by taking a risk to finish the season with more points (Spec. 4 has been lurking in the shadows so long I hope it's not much of a risk). Then there's the consideration that RB may not have a choice in 2019 but to run Honda engines; they shouldn't waste any time or push development they can do with McLaren on Toro Rosso's back. And it would be nice to stick it to McLaren with a really strong showing in Abu Dhabi.

[NL_Fer]

Maybe Honda understood early already, that a bigger engine could be much more powerfull/efficient but McLaren wanted to keep to the size zero.

[godlameroso]

Some would say crap, others would say change it's properties. Good or bad are relative terms, better to deal with cause and effect. In other words what does oil do to gasoline? Why would this feature be harmful, and would it still be harmful with more precise control of the combustion process?

The word oil could mean a broad spectrum of stuff, but I think he means engine oil. (synthetic or mineral?) Interestingly fuel injector cleaner is a thick oil smelling like kerosene. You can only add maybe a 100 grams to 20 gallons or else it would mess your engine up lol... For engine oil.. I know that Truckers add engine oil to the diesel sometimes. I forget why. Anyway, I just remembered there is a thread for this!

Exactly. Fuel injector cleaner is just 2T oil. Works, tested. They could just run some variation of 2T oil and get a notable performance boost. Also many people are reporting a funny smell from some cars. That would be it...

In qualifying it will still be possible to use that boost, unless FIA makes some new rules. Thats why Honda is stil developing it this late.

I thought fuel injector cleaner's main active ingredient was polyetheramine.

[dren]

Masashi Yamamoto

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/ya ... rosso.html

Obviously Yamamoto is trying to say something.
What changes does Yamamoto speak?

if it is true that spec 4 was ready to use a long time ago. This could be the reason. (this is pure speculation)

It reads like cultural differences to me. Sounds like Mclaren wanted to tell Honda what to go do and expected it to be done; it wasn't. How much of that was Honda's fault over promising? We'll never know, but the partnership didn't work out. They'll be in a better place with TR. I hope we get to see Honda come true next year.

[ziggy]

The word oil could mean a broad spectrum of stuff, but I think he means engine oil. (synthetic or mineral?) Interestingly fuel injector cleaner is a thick oil smelling like kerosene. You can only add maybe a 100 grams to 20 gallons or else it would mess your engine up lol... For engine oil.. I know that Truckers add engine oil to the diesel sometimes. I forget why. Anyway, I just remembered there is a thread for this!

Exactly. Fuel injector cleaner is just 2T oil. Works, tested. They could just run some variation of 2T oil and get a notable performance boost. Also many people are reporting a funny smell from some cars. That would be it...

In qualifying it will still be possible to use that boost, unless FIA makes some new rules. Thats why Honda is stil developing it this late.

I thought fuel injector cleaner's main active ingredient was polyetheramine.

Theres not only one injector cleaner and one chemical formula. LOL. Depends on what you need...

Nevertheless it was only an example. God knows what they are brewing in the labs. Doesen't even have to be oil. Nano tech is a great opportunity and has a lot of potential. The development is at a very high rate and some teams really underestimated fuel development. One could say lubricants and fuel are being "reinvented", thats how big the difference is compared to previous years.

[PlatinumZealot]

Some would say crap, others would say change it's properties. Good or bad are relative terms, better to deal with cause and effect. In other words what does oil do to gasoline? Why would this feature be harmful, and would it still be harmful with more precise control of the combustion process?

The word oil could mean a broad spectrum of stuff, but I think he means engine oil. (synthetic or mineral?) Interestingly fuel injector cleaner is a thick oil smelling like kerosene. You can only add maybe a 100 grams to 20 gallons or else it would mess your engine up lol... For engine oil.. I know that Truckers add engine oil to the diesel sometimes. I forget why. Anyway, I just remembered there is a thread for this!

Exactly. Fuel injector cleaner is just 2T oil. Works, tested. They could just run some variation of 2T oil and get a notable performance boost. Also many people are reporting a funny smell from some cars. That would be it...

In qualifying it will still be possible to use that boost, unless FIA makes some new rules. Thats why Honda is stil developing it this late.

I don't think that is true. Fuel injector cleaner is not a performance boost. It cleans the injectors but above a certain concentration will hurt your engine. But let us not go off topic any further. There is a fuel additives thread.

[Wazari]

Since I am getting asked many questions, many of them the same, again I will try and answer here. Please keep in mind I am no longer associated with HRD directly. Yes my nephew is still there but I really don't speak to him about F1 these days. What I say is a mixture of what I know to be fact and also speculation on my part. I have tried to distinguish the two and I apologize if I have not done a good job of that. Again, I appreciate this forum as it has been an avenue to vent, a way to practice my English writing skills or lack thereof, and speak on a topic which I like very much in a completely new way.

With regards to my definition of "Spec 4", it was one of three mono-cylinder models out of several models that was built into a V-6 ICE and tested prior to winter testing. All three were built with different combustion chambers, with different TC's and different MGU-H configurations. All had different weights, COG's, etc, but with similar overall architecture. Overall initial performance figures were close but IMO the potential for increased output, fuel efficiency and reliability were not. People way above my pay grade at McLaren and Honda and supposedly outside consultants ultimately decided which PU to go with for 2017 with McLaren having final say. I was disappointed at the choice and I know several higher-ups at Honda were not happy but that's all I know. I am very familiar with what I call "Spec 4" and although biased, honestly know it have the best potential peak power, best fuel efficiency and better harvesting characteristics. So that was an extreme source of frustration for me and knew would add more poison to an already toxic relationship between the two bodies.

As far as McLaren's chassis in terms of mechanical grip and handling I would say it's very good. It appears the "sweet spot" between over and under-steer is relatively large and adjustments easy to make. However DF and drag coefficient is not what I think most people's perception are. I will leave it at that. It's not as low DF as I think most people are thinking.

Oil burning.....not so much oil burning itself but additives to oil. I think it's interesting that the FIA added Sections 7.8 and 7.9 to the technical regulations for next year. I think I have mentioned this before but if you are in the pits, the exhaust from all the Mercedes PU's have a distinct smell. The rest are all similar. Also if you stand behind the cars, the exhaust from the Mercedes team cars also have a haze to the exhaust unlike any other. You can't see it on television but you can definitely see it in person. So something is different with what is being burned in their combustion chamber. "Secret sauce?"

So anyway I think I won't be writing for a while. Believe what you want, if you don't like what I write, I understand but please keep your insults to a minimum. Thanks.

[diffuser]

Since I am getting asked many questions, many of them the same, again I will try and answer here. Please keep in mind I am no longer associated with HRD directly. Yes my nephew is still there but I really don't speak to him about F1 these days. What I say is a mixture of what I know to be fact and also speculation on my part. I have tried to distinguish the two and I apologize if I have not done a good job of that. Again, I appreciate this forum as it has been an avenue to vent, a way to practice my English writing skills or lack thereof, and speak on a topic which I like very much in a completely new way.

With regards to my definition of "Spec 4", it was one of three mono-cylinder models out of several models that was built into a V-6 ICE and tested prior to winter testing. All three were built with different combustion chambers, with different TC's and different MGU-H configurations. All had different weights, COG's, etc, but with similar overall architecture. Overall initial performance figures were close but IMO the potential for increased output, fuel efficiency and reliability were not. People way above my pay grade at McLaren and Honda and supposedly outside consultants ultimately decided which PU to go with for 2017 with McLaren having final say. I was disappointed at the choice and I know several higher-ups at Honda were not happy but that's all I know. I am very familiar with what I call "Spec 4" and although biased, honestly know it have the best potential peak power, best fuel efficiency and better harvesting characteristics. So that was an extreme source of frustration for me and knew would add more poison to an already toxic relationship between the two bodies.

As far as McLaren's chassis in terms of mechanical grip and handling I would say it's very good. It appears the "sweet spot" between over and under-steer is relatively large and adjustments easy to make. However DF and drag coefficient is not what I think most people's perception are. I will leave it at that. It's not as low DF as I think most people are thinking.

Oil burning.....not so much oil burning itself but additives to oil. I think it's interesting that the FIA added Sections 7.8 and 7.9 to the technical regulations for next year. I think I have mentioned this before but if you are in the pits, the exhaust from all the Mercedes PU's have a distinct smell. The rest are all similar. Also if you stand behind the cars, the exhaust from the Mercedes team cars also have a haze to the exhaust unlike any other. You can't see it on television but you can definitely see it in person. So something is different with what is being burned in their combustion chamber. "Secret sauce?"

So anyway I think I won't be writing for a while. Believe what you want, if you don't like what I write, I understand but please keep your insults to a minimum. Thanks.

I hope you will be Keep writing from time to time (next year) in the Honda Power Unit Thread.