Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[1158]

Do these PUs have a single throttle body or are they running ITBs? If ITBs are being used there would be a way to create negative pressure in the manifold runner after the TB when the intake valve initially opens and the piston starts its downward stroke. (I realize they aren't really ITBs but wasn't sure how to word it)

I guess the variable length intake could also be used to do this, increase the length of the runner at the right time and it would create a vacuum. I think this would still require ITBs though.

This would all be incredibly complex to get just right, but with all the monitoring that goes on with these PUs I'm sure it is possible.

Or could the MGU-H and wastegate be used to create pressure waves in the intake tract that create a negative pressure pocket that passes the PCV valve as it opens?

[PlatinumZealot]

Since I am getting asked many questions, many of them the same, again I will try and answer here. Please keep in mind I am no longer associated with HRD directly. Yes my nephew is still there but I really don't speak to him about F1 these days. What I say is a mixture of what I know to be fact and also speculation on my part. I have tried to distinguish the two and I apologize if I have not done a good job of that. Again, I appreciate this forum as it has been an avenue to vent, a way to practice my English writing skills or lack thereof, and speak on a topic which I like very much in a completely new way.

With regards to my definition of "Spec 4", it was one of three mono-cylinder models out of several models that was built into a V-6 ICE and tested prior to winter testing.....

Aah... Makes sense. Gills Simon! That is why he was shown the door.

Oil burning.....not so much oil burning itself but additives to oil. I think it's interesting that the FIA added Sections 7.8 and 7.9 to the technical regulations for next year. I think I have mentioned this before but if you are in the pits, the exhaust from all the Mercedes PU's have a distinct smell. The rest are all similar. Also if you stand behind the cars, the exhaust from the Mercedes team cars also have a haze to the exhaust unlike any other. You can't see it on television but you can definitely see it in person. So something is different with what is being burned in their combustion chamber. "Secret sauce?"

Yep the Mercedes soot has a totally different colour from the others. I think the fumes from the oil are combustion stablizers. That gas has something to do with the radiation scattering path length... it sort of tempers the flame... am I correct here? Or total rubbish? haha

So anyway I think I won't be writing for a while. Believe what you want, if you don't like what I write, I understand but please keep your insults to a minimum. Thanks.

Don't leave yet Wazari. We need you more than ever in these coming months. Not to mention winter testing!

[hemichromis]

So anyway I think I won't be writing for a while. Believe what you want, if you don't like what I write, I understand but please keep your insults to a minimum. Thanks.

Don't leave yet Wazari. We need you more than ever in these coming months. Not to mention winter testing!
[/quote]

Just wait till Spec 4 is on track!

[gofast182]

It seems the Illien team came in and found that existing Spec. 4 concept is a worthy approach

Sorry, I'm not sure I've seen anything concrete to show this is the case ? Quite a lot of forum 1 + 1 = 3, kinda posts - not having a go at you but this stuff gets speculated on by someone, repeated a few times and then sinks into the collective forum consciousness as a fact (or near fact). I don't think there are any reasonably substantiated claims about what Illien has done with respect to Honda so far, or did I miss something ?

I prefer to think of it as 1+1=2 (instead of someone just telling us the answer is 2) but you raise a fair point, it is pieced together by reasoning and deducing how various pieces of information relate. Isn't that part of the 'fun'?

[HPD]

[BrunoH]

nice...

[JonoNic]

That photo. So can any of the eagle-eyed guys see anything new or interesting here?

[HPD]

The Honda seems small but sturdy

[amho]

There is always negative pressure in the crankcase from the Dry Sump system.
This helps with piston ring sealing.
Further complicating things.

Lubricant also "...helps with with ring sealing."
& introduction to the rings may be from above ( by inlet) &/or below ( via a minimalist 'oil ring' - to also reduce friction).

As for "oil burning" - well, internal consumption - which does not spread/spray liquid lubricant out of the ICE, really is..

I agree with you that oil consumption of Mercedes is not about increasing power with combustion of oil,it gains power with reducing friction.
I think when the engine is at off throttle status(during braking or cornering), a venturi valve opens and uses blow off gases to create vacuum and lead plenty of oil into the cylinder to decrease friction of compression rings therefore there is less friction less engine braking and therefore more momentum in crank shaft for mgu-k to store energy.
here I have tried to show that combustion of oil can't be a source of power with these estimations:
- allowed level of oil burn: 1.2 Lt/100 km
- allowed level of fuel consumption: 100 kg/hour
and if assume density of racing oil equal to 0.85 kg/liter
considering Monza race duration of : 1:15:32.3 =1.258 hour
then fuel consumption in monza race is 100x1.258=125.8 kg
considering monza race distance of 306.720 then oil consumption during the race is:
1.2x0.85x3.0672= 3.128 kg (oil consumption)
and if we assume that 100% of that oil is burned and have equal heating value as original fuel (which is impossible) then total available fuel (oil+ orignall fuel) is equal to 128.92 kg.
then if we assume that Ice produces 800 bhp with 125.8 kg fuel( 100kg/hour) limitation then the power with oil will be about 819 bhp. so in the best cast and with impossible assumption burning of oil only adds 19 bhp...

[santos]

There is always negative pressure in the crankcase from the Dry Sump system.
This helps with piston ring sealing.
Further complicating things.

Lubricant also "...helps with with ring sealing."
& introduction to the rings may be from above ( by inlet) &/or below ( via a minimalist 'oil ring' - to also reduce friction).

As for "oil burning" - well, internal consumption - which does not spread/spray liquid lubricant out of the ICE, really is..

I agree with you that oil consumption of Mercedes is not about increasing power with combustion of oil,it gains power with reducing friction.
I think when the engine is at off throttle status(during braking or cornering), a venturi valve opens and uses blow off gases to create vacuum and lead plenty of oil into the cylinder to decrease friction of compression rings therefore there is less friction less engine braking and therefore more momentum in crank shaft for mgu-k to store energy.
here I have tried to show that combustion of oil can't be a source of power with these estimations:
- allowed level of oil burn: 1.2 Lt/100 km
- allowed level of fuel consumption: 100 kg/hour
and if assume density of racing oil equal to 0.85 kg/liter
considering Monza race duration of : 1:15:32.3 =1.258 hour
then fuel consumption in monza race is 100x1.258=125.8 kg
considering monza race distance of 306.720 then oil consumption during the race is:
1.2x0.85x3.0672= 3.128 kg (oil consumption)
and if we assume that 100% of that oil is burned and have equal heating value as original fuel (which is impossible) then total available fuel (oil+ orignall fuel) is equal to 128.92 kg.
then if we assume that Ice produces 800 bhp with 125.8 kg fuel( 100kg/hour) limitation then the power with oil will be about 819 bhp. so in the best cast and with impossible assumption burning of oil only adds 19 bhp...

I thought that this trick about using oil to gain performance was only used in qualifying.

[etusch]

I agree with you that oil consumption of Mercedes is not about increasing power with combustion of oil,it gains power with reducing friction.
I think when the engine is at off throttle status(during braking or cornering), a venturi valve opens and uses blow off gases to create vacuum and lead plenty of oil into the cylinder to decrease friction of compression rings therefore there is less friction less engine braking and therefore more momentum in crank shaft for mgu-k to store energy.
here I have tried to show that combustion of oil can't be a source of power with these estimations:
- allowed level of oil burn: 1.2 Lt/100 km
- allowed level of fuel consumption: 100 kg/hour
and if assume density of racing oil equal to 0.85 kg/liter
considering Monza race duration of : 1:15:32.3 =1.258 hour
then fuel consumption in monza race is 100x1.258=125.8 kg
considering monza race distance of 306.720 then oil consumption during the race is:
1.2x0.85x3.0672= 3.128 kg (oil consumption)
and if we assume that 100% of that oil is burned and have equal heating value as original fuel (which is impossible) then total available fuel (oil+ orignall fuel) is equal to 128.92 kg.
then if we assume that Ice produces 800 bhp with 125.8 kg fuel( 100kg/hour) limitation then the power with oil will be about 819 bhp. so in the best cast and with impossible assumption burning of oil only adds 19 bhp...

It is very good idea to vacuum oil into cylinder during off throttle periods of engine. But I think they're still burning that oil. It can help lubrication but best income is keeping mgu-h turning without consuming electric from storage with gas of burned oil. And that oil may be produced producing very much gas.

[harjan]

The fuel cell is max 105 liters- why are you using 126 kg?

The 100 kg/h is a max, but on part/off throttle they’re using less.

[amho]

The fuel cell is max 105 liters- why are you using 126 kg?

The 100 kg/h is a max, but on part/off throttle they’re using less.

126 kg is for 1.258 hour of monza is equal to fuel rate of 100kg/hour.
if we add 3.128 kg of oil during that 1.258 hour to 125.8 kg fuel then total fuel mass flow rate is 102.480 kg/hour.

[harjan]

But they’re using a max of 105 kg, not 126kg..So if they use 3kg of oil as fuel then they use 108kg. In qualifying this would kwam 3 percent extra power 103 kg/h instead of 100).

But I dont think thats what they use it for, oil with fuel like combustion characteristics sounds far fetched. Burning oil off throttle to reduce friction sounds plausible. And burning oil to bring down the temperatures in the cylinders to increase efficiency?

[restless]

In qualy fuel-flow is limited to 100kg/h, but oil-flow is unlimited ...
They can burn even 1l/minute for 2 laps in Q3, with ~ fuel limited to ~1.5l/lap, thats huge