Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't want to sound negative but Marko will act like that even if the 2018 Honda engine was exploding on the dyno (let's remember make history, we're gonna catch Ferrari before the end of the season...).

What Marko heard from Honda is the same thing that convinced McLaren to split. I don't think we can read much into it.

Marko is not Ron Dennis. He does not add perfume to his words.

[PlatinumZealot]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

It would have solved nothing. It would have made any problems even worse. Honda is, by their own admission, suffering from correlation issues between the dyno and the track. How does one expect Honda to improve if they lost access to the track?

This idea of a "sabbatical" would be nothing more than a soft exit for Honda.

They solved their correlation issues long ago. Even before winter testing that had six cylinder units. Rememver in the engine world lead times are quote long so the engine news you hear today is really about events many months old.

[Wazari]

At the start of season you said that there is no big deal to switch to BP fuel after developing it with mobil in the last 2 year, and now you said that the lubricant is very important for combustion. I dont get it, why you say switching is okay? As far as we knew petronas and shell cannot be exchanged with different engine, at least for full power.

I think we're talking about two separate issues here. Obviously fuel and lubricants are important for any PU. I am not saying lubricant is "very important" for combustion. What I am saying is that I believe at least one PU manufacturer is using oil as an integral part of their combustion process.

As far McLaren switching from Esso to BP before this season started was not a big deal IMO in this particular case. Since McLaren was Honda's sole "user" it could work closely with BP and dial up specific blends for that PU. Also McLaren had previous samples from Esso to share with BP. This was unique to McLaren Honda as a "works" team. Works team have this advantage. Teams buying PU's from another manufacturer do not have this benefit. They do not have all the specifics of the PU to share with their supplier for optimum blends. This gives Mercedes, Ferrari and now Renault a significant advantage with regards to what is being formulated for that specific team regardless of who that specific supplier is. Also, just because a car has a particular decal on it, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what is inside the car.

[MrPotatoHead]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

It would have solved nothing. It would have made any problems even worse. Honda is, by their own admission, suffering from correlation issues between the dyno and the track. How does one expect Honda to improve if they lost access to the track?

This idea of a "sabbatical" would be nothing more than a soft exit for Honda.

They solved their correlation issues long ago. Even before winter testing that had six cylinder units. Rememver in the engine world lead times are quote long so the engine news you hear today is really about events many months old.

This is incorrect.
Quite recently they still reported having problems correlating what they saw on the dyno with the track.

[PlatinumZealot]

Your source is just trying to bash honda.

[Singabule]

At the start of season you said that there is no big deal to switch to BP fuel after developing it with mobil in the last 2 year, and now you said that the lubricant is very important for combustion. I dont get it, why you say switching is okay? As far as we knew petronas and shell cannot be exchanged with different engine, at least for full power.

I think we're talking about two separate issues here. Obviously fuel and lubricants are important for any PU. I am not saying lubricant is "very important" for combustion. What I am saying is that I believe at least one PU manufacturer is using oil as an integral part of their combustion process.

As far McLaren switching from Esso to BP before this season started was not a big deal IMO in this particular case. Since McLaren was Honda's sole "user" it could work closely with BP and dial up specific blends for that PU. Also McLaren had previous samples from Esso to share with BP. This was unique to McLaren Honda as a "works" team. Works team have this advantage. Teams buying PU's from another manufacturer do not have this benefit. They do not have all the specifics of the PU to share with their supplier for optimum blends. This gives Mercedes, Ferrari and now Renault a significant advantage with regards to what is being formulated for that specific team regardless of who that specific supplier is. Also, just because a car has a particular decal on it, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what is inside the car.

Wazari san, do you mean that there is additive of lubricant that is not allowed in fuel by regulation that can be used as let say knock repellant so that very integral for the combustion? Mangan? TEL? As far as i know TEL can reduce friction by create a thin layer between metal. Mangan also good for lubricant

[aterren]

I think we're talking about two separate issues here. Obviously fuel and lubricants are important for any PU. I am not saying lubricant is "very important" for combustion. What I am saying is that I believe at least one PU manufacturer is using oil as an integral part of their combustion process.

Wazari san, do you mean that there is additive of lubricant that is not allowed in fuel by regulation that can be used as let say knock repellant so that very integral for the combustion?

My understanding is that crank case ventilation (think PCV on a road car) is intentionally polluted with excess oil. This oil has energy and when burned produces power and that power is not constrained by the fuel flow and total fuel limits.

[Wazari]

Well let's just say that the FIA is very specific about fuel composition but oil make-up???

[Singabule]

Well let's just say that the FIA is very specific about fuel composition but oil make-up???

Nope. So it is leaded fuel from lubricant after all. So qualy mode is about how to create nice balance between engine jam from excess deposit and full power, and detonation

[godlameroso]

At the start of season you said that there is no big deal to switch to BP fuel after developing it with mobil in the last 2 year, and now you said that the lubricant is very important for combustion. I dont get it, why you say switching is okay? As far as we knew petronas and shell cannot be exchanged with different engine, at least for full power.

I think we're talking about two separate issues here. Obviously fuel and lubricants are important for any PU. I am not saying lubricant is "very important" for combustion. What I am saying is that I believe at least one PU manufacturer is using oil as an integral part of their combustion process.

As far McLaren switching from Esso to BP before this season started was not a big deal IMO in this particular case. Since McLaren was Honda's sole "user" it could work closely with BP and dial up specific blends for that PU. Also McLaren had previous samples from Esso to share with BP. This was unique to McLaren Honda as a "works" team. Works team have this advantage. Teams buying PU's from another manufacturer do not have this benefit. They do not have all the specifics of the PU to share with their supplier for optimum blends. This gives Mercedes, Ferrari and now Renault a significant advantage with regards to what is being formulated for that specific team regardless of who that specific supplier is. Also, just because a car has a particular decal on it, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what is inside the car.

Wazari san, do you mean that there is additive of lubricant that is not allowed in fuel by regulation that can be used as let say knock repellant so that very integral for the combustion? Mangan? TEL? As far as i know TEL can reduce friction by create a thin layer between metal. Mangan also good for lubricant

Oil doesn't reduce knock, quite the opposite, oil increases the reactivity of petrol or lowers the octane rating. Maybe a way to get around the lower limit placed on octane in the regulations. Now why would you do this? Maybe there is a localized combustion instability. We know that these engines work with fuel stratification. Well what if the pre chamber isn't igniting the main chamber very efficiently forcing you to run rich to control knock due to combustion instability. Let's say you mix a little oil in your pre-chamber fuel mix, now you see that your main chamber is being ignited much more efficiently which in turn improves fuel consumption. It could also be the other way around, the prechamber ignites easily but the main chamber doesn't, so you increase the reactivity of the main chamber,by adding a little oil, making it easier for the prechamber to ignite the main chamber mixture, again improving efficiency

[gruntguru]

These engines are only knock limited at the margin.

Drop the octane of the fuel by a few points and they would only need to wind the power down by a very small amount. Offer them an extra 5 kg/hr of hydrocarbon fuel with a RON of zero and the power would go up by 3% - 4%.

BTW. Carefully formulated lubricant plus a bit of TEL or similar would have a RON better than zero.

[Singabule]

Thanks for insight GG, so the fuel itself is kerosene like fuel, with long carbon structure with semi diesel style combustion, helped with plug. However when lubricant enter the combustion chamber there is risk of detonation, so i think TEL is very important to mitigate this issue. Another environment issue than NOx, CO for burning heavy fuel as well

[Sasha]

Fuel in pre-chamber, oil(Fumes) in main chamber and do remember that the oil MB uses isn't nothing like 0-20W you use in your car or any other racing oil used in the World.

Back in the early 90's I raced RC Outriggers and I used a top-secret oil that we used in F1.Most people used castor oil with mix rate of 20-25%,others used Synthetic oil with mix rate of 15-17%.The oil I was using was at a mix rate of 8% and the only negative was it was hard to clean up,turned everything it touched yellow.Bottom-line is their are some crazy oils out there.

[gruntguru]

owever when lubricant enter the combustion chamber there is risk of detonation, so i think TEL is very important to mitigate this issue.

Actually the point I was trying to make is TEL might not be all that important. Mitigating the detonation that would result from adding say 5% kerosene to the fuel on one of these engines would only require a small reduction in CR from the already very high level (or perhaps a slight tune adjustment). An increase in CR offers only marginal efficiency benefits at these high levels. Of course TEL in the oil might allow CR to remain the same.

[BrunoH]

i think they must be using TEL, dunno if it was the ferrari or mercedes, but i remember looking at a photo here in the forum and the exhaust pipes were like a Rust in color!?! normally indicates the presence of TEL i believe...