Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[bigblue]

Marko to visit Honda HQ after Malaysia (at grandprix.com)

"Honda will increase its F1 budget by 50 per cent for 2018," he said. "It is the funds freed up by the McLaren sponsorship."

[godlameroso]

The way HCCI works it is not suitable for F1 engines at high rpms... Hcci is compression ignition which is too slow for f1.

TJI is what we know is used in Ferrari Mercedes and Renault. Honda is yet to be confirmed but it was alluded to by hasegawa that the engine has all the
" lastest" technologies.

Would the issue not be a control and excessive cylinder pressure issue? Ultra lean Lean HCCI can be assisted by TJI/CVCC to ignite reliably (Forced into HCCI mode). Nice thing about these MGU-H assisted turbos, are that you can get high boost pressures at lower RPM and load - maybe do psuedo HCCI in these lower reaches to increase economy.

It's why the combustion CFD is so important, with good models you can predict what goes on and to a certain extent control it, this is tremendous as far as design is concerned. You can play with all variables, it's especially important as far as injection timing, and spray patterns are concerned, and now to a greater extent, the geometry of the combustion chambers, and the intake and exhaust ports. Although there's still a fair bit of development still needed in those last two.

[godlameroso]

Marko to visit Honda HQ after Malaysia (at grandprix.com)

"Honda will increase its F1 budget by 50 per cent for 2018," he said. "It is the funds freed up by the McLaren sponsorship."

So Honda was spending ~$350 million per season to develop these engines and pay for drivers and for McLaren to develop the car? McLaren must be sure of their chassis if they're willing to lose that. If the engine is worth 1 second they'd still be behind the top 3, and off the pace by .7 seconds, they would need to luck into a podium.

[godlameroso]

Port dimpling..........by doing so you are increasing the surface area of the port which is typically not a desired thing. Interesting things can be done and accomplished by piston crown dimpling........possible point to ponder.

Also I think some might be getting CVCC and HCCI confused with each other. They are not the same technology.

The dimples would increase turbulence in this instance? The dimples would not be uniform in size or distribution? Perhaps to control the pressure distribution in the chamber during the compression and power strokes?

Final question, are the finishes on the ports similar to this old V10 head? (~320 grit uniform)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15385

Or is the finish not uniform on the intake?

[MrPotatoHead]

Port dimpling..........by doing so you are increasing the surface area of the port which is typically not a desired thing. Interesting things can be done and accomplished by piston crown dimpling........possible point to ponder.

Also I think some might be getting CVCC and HCCI confused with each other. They are not the same technology.

The dimples would increase turbulence in this instance? The dimples would not be uniform in size or distribution? Perhaps to control the pressure distribution in the chamber during the compression and power strokes?

Final question, are the finishes on the ports similar to this old V10 head? (~320 grit uniform)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15385

Or is the finish not uniform on the intake?

They are either hand finished as cast or cnc ported from castings, then left in their cnc ported state or hand finished on top of that.
No dimples or anything like it.

[ziggy]

The way HCCI works it is not suitable for F1 engines at high rpms... Hcci is compression ignition which is too slow for f1.

TJI is what we know is used in Ferrari Mercedes and Renault. Honda is yet to be confirmed but it was alluded to by hasegawa that the engine has all the
" lastest" technologies.

HCCI ignition is quicker than SI. Would the issue not be a control and excessive cylinder pressure issue? Ultra lean Lean HCCI can be assisted by TJI/CVCC to ignite reliably (Forced into HCCI mode). Nice thing about these MGU-H assisted turbos, are that you can get high boost pressures at lower RPM and load - maybe do psuedo HCCI in these lower reaches to increase economy.

Thats what I'm talking about. It could be a combination. It's clear that for HCCI very special conditions are needed. So the manufacturers could use traditional spark ignition just when it's needed, like in very low or very high rpm.

This could be also the reason for the massive vibration problems. Getting this to work takes years and I really doubt Honda would struggle that much with a "normal" V6 ICE. There's has to be something very special about this combustion process.

I have an idea on something which could increase the compression ratio and still pass the rules. Maybe the lubricants are not burned as we thought, but instead used to fill some gaps


For the interested: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... orks-video

Specific temperatures are needed to ignite the mixture by itself, but this is also where earlier attempts at gasoline-powered HCCI engines have failed: ambient temperatures are critical.

Should the outside temperatures be too hot or too cold, it wreaks havoc on the HCCI process: temperatures that are too high create engine knock, while those that are too cold can hurt the ignition system itself.

[HPD]

Translated by Google (it's a little confusing)

Hasegawa:
- "I've hit various hands, such as raising low-speed torque, and as a result I think that I got to a position that the point can aim for.I think that it is a big progress that the reliability problem disappeared. It is also important to not have any trouble in. Finish is our minimum responsibility. "

- "Belgium was totally beaten.In Mzza the shaft of MGU - K broke, but at least, we were able to fully demonstrate our abilities in Malaysia, our job is to make full use of our abilities I can not do anything beyond that, I am satisfied in that sense. "

- "As to power, I changed the setting of the engine from Monza so I'm going to give power, in Belgium I only used the output I used in qualifying mode, in Monza for racing so so I think I was able to run a lot in the race, and this time, it definitely works. "

- "I'd like to take this tune with the Japanese GP as well"

An interesting fact about what Hasegawa is talking about.
In Belgium, Honda released a 26 HP engine map. (only for classification)
In Malaysia. The first 7 laps:
- Vandoorne was controlling Perez without DRS
- Alonso controlled Vettel.
Lap 8:
- Perez beats Vandoorne.
- Vettel beats Alonso.

[ArcticWolfie]

Translated by Google (it's a little confusing)

Hasegawa:
- "I've hit various hands, such as raising low-speed torque, and as a result I think that I got to a position that the point can aim for.I think that it is a big progress that the reliability problem disappeared. It is also important to not have any trouble in. Finish is our minimum responsibility. "

- "Belgium was totally beaten.In Mzza the shaft of MGU - K broke, but at least, we were able to fully demonstrate our abilities in Malaysia, our job is to make full use of our abilities I can not do anything beyond that, I am satisfied in that sense. "

- "As to power, I changed the setting of the engine from Monza so I'm going to give power, in Belgium I only used the output I used in qualifying mode, in Monza for racing so so I think I was able to run a lot in the race, and this time, it definitely works. "

- "I'd like to take this tune with the Japanese GP as well"

An interesting fact about what Hasegawa is talking about.
In Belgium, Honda released a 26 HP engine map. (only for classification)
In Malaysia. The first 7 laps:
- Vandoorne was controlling Perez without DRS
- Alonso controlled Vettel.
Lap 8:
- Perez beats Vandoorne.
- Vettel beats Alonso.

Vandoorne made a mistake in corner 2 I believe?

Alonso was in a DRS train, but I guess Ferrari used all available power to overtake him. Vettel overtook Magnussen way faster than Alonso, so maybe the DRS train was already broken when he overtook Alonso.

[Wazari]

The dimples would increase turbulence in this instance? The dimples would not be uniform in size or distribution? Perhaps to control the pressure distribution in the chamber during the compression and power strokes?

Final question, are the finishes on the ports similar to this old V10 head? (~320 grit uniform)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15385

Or is the finish not uniform on the intake?

No dimples on the ports. Port finish is uniform but finer than 320 grit.

[HPD]

I think not @ArcticWolfie

The full interview will be in the thread of Toro Rosso.

Franz Tost:
"When I go to Japan for the Japanese Grand Prix, there is a meeting at the Tokyo headquarters where there should be a detailed exchange of information on our car and Honda's power unit. At this time, I think that things are going forward, next year's car will have a new monocoque, especially the rear part of the monocoque carrying the Honda's power unit will be a new design, the cooling system and the gearbox will be newly designed. The director in charge is also checking the development time ahead. "

"Since I am different from what I am using the power unit and Honda that I am using now, I think that it is necessary to make a major review, but I believe that problems will not occur much."

[godlameroso]

The dimples would increase turbulence in this instance? The dimples would not be uniform in size or distribution? Perhaps to control the pressure distribution in the chamber during the compression and power strokes?

Final question, are the finishes on the ports similar to this old V10 head? (~320 grit uniform)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15385

Or is the finish not uniform on the intake?

No dimples on the ports. Port finish is uniform but finer than 320 grit.

Interesting that the ports use uniform finishes, I suppose using different finishes on the roof vs floor of the port has no benefit or they'd be doing it.

Is extrusion honing crude in comparison to the type of finishing taking place?

[MrPotatoHead]

The dimples would increase turbulence in this instance? The dimples would not be uniform in size or distribution? Perhaps to control the pressure distribution in the chamber during the compression and power strokes?

Final question, are the finishes on the ports similar to this old V10 head? (~320 grit uniform)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15385

Or is the finish not uniform on the intake?

No dimples on the ports. Port finish is uniform but finer than 320 grit.

Interesting that the ports use uniform finishes, I suppose using different finishes on the roof vs floor of the port has no benefit or they'd be doing it.

Is extrusion honing crude in comparison to the type of finishing taking place?

Extrude Honing is too crude for any serious port finishing as you have zero control over where it removes material.

[etusch]

Translated by Google (it's a little confusing)

Hasegawa:
- "I've hit various hands, such as raising low-speed torque, and as a result I think that I got to a position that the point can aim for.I think that it is a big progress that the reliability problem disappeared. It is also important to not have any trouble in. Finish is our minimum responsibility. "

- "Belgium was totally beaten.In Mzza the shaft of MGU - K broke, but at least, we were able to fully demonstrate our abilities in Malaysia, our job is to make full use of our abilities I can not do anything beyond that, I am satisfied in that sense. "

- "As to power, I changed the setting of the engine from Monza so I'm going to give power, in Belgium I only used the output I used in qualifying mode, in Monza for racing so so I think I was able to run a lot in the race, and this time, it definitely works. "

- "I'd like to take this tune with the Japanese GP as well"

An interesting fact about what Hasegawa is talking about.
In Belgium, Honda released a 26 HP engine map. (only for classification)
In Malaysia. The first 7 laps:
- Vandoorne was controlling Perez without DRS
- Alonso controlled Vettel.
Lap 8:
- Perez beats Vandoorne.
- Vettel beats Alonso.

This also means that spec 4 not coming to Suzuka

[MrPotatoHead]

Interesting that the ports use uniform finishes, I suppose using different finishes on the roof vs floor of the port has no benefit or they'd be doing it.

I guess it could be interesting but it's also pretty normal in the world of heads.
But yes if there was any benefit at all to dimples or strange / different surface finishes you would see it on the top heads in the world but you do not.

I can answer any questions you might have on cylinder heads though if you would care to ask.

[PlatinumZealot]

The way HCCI works it is not suitable for F1 engines at high rpms... Hcci is compression ignition which is too slow for f1.

TJI is what we know is used in Ferrari Mercedes and Renault. Honda is yet to be confirmed but it was alluded to by hasegawa that the engine has all the
" lastest" technologies.

HCCI ignition is quicker than SI. Would the issue not be a control and excessive cylinder pressure issue? Ultra lean Lean HCCI can be assisted by TJI/CVCC to ignite reliably (Forced into HCCI mode). Nice thing about these MGU-H assisted turbos, are that you can get high boost pressures at lower RPM and load - maybe do psuedo HCCI in these lower reaches to increase economy.

Nope still slower. Even if HCCI ignites the whole the mixture at near the same Instant... You still have to wait to build up enough peak pressure to ignite in the first place. Just like deisel Poor or no control over ignition timing.

Also.. We know HCCI is not used simply because the cars don't sound like comoression ignition engines which have a characteristic knocking sound. Even the audi R18 had a knocking sound.