Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

+1.. leave that talk for 2014. Looking ahead to close out 2017 and a new beginning in 2018.

[gruntguru]

The way HCCI works it is not suitable for F1 engines at high rpms... Hcci is compression ignition which is too slow for f1.

TJI is what we know is used in Ferrari Mercedes and Renault. Honda is yet to be confirmed but it was alluded to by hasegawa that the engine has all the
" lastest" technologies.

HCCI ignition is quicker than SI. Would the issue not be a control and excessive cylinder pressure issue? Ultra lean Lean HCCI can be assisted by TJI/CVCC to ignite reliably (Forced into HCCI mode). Nice thing about these MGU-H assisted turbos, are that you can get high boost pressures at lower RPM and load - maybe do psuedo HCCI in these lower reaches to increase economy.

Nope still slower. Even if HCCI ignites the whole the mixture at near the same Instant... You still have to wait to build up enough peak pressure to ignite in the first place. Just like deisel Poor or no control over ignition timing.

The key benefit of HCCI is rapid combustion with completion very close to TDC.

[gruntguru]

These days a little smoother is desired - but not too smooth. There is a sweet spot of around 10 to 20 microns cusp height on a cnc ported head that performs the best. This seems to produce a boundary layer that is about perfect.

Also I'd assume with 4 -5 bar of boost and 12000rpm port velocity must be pretty high too; with dimples wayyy too small to have any effect as the dimpled surface would just stall and act as a smooth surface anyway.

Racing engines have similar port velocities regardless of rpm and boost. The port cross section area is sized to achieve the desired velocity.

Boost has no effect on velocity, it increases the density of the air, which then increases the mass flow rate. The volumetric flow rate remains the same. Velocity = volumetric flow rate / port area.

[Rodak]

My first post here, so please be gentle. @ PlatinumZealot:

.....rough finish is not for aerodynamics. But to prevent fuel from puddling on the walls. The V10 engines were showered in fuel from those port injectors so i assume that you want to prevent any coallescing which would happen on a smooth surface..

Aren't the engine direct injection? Where would fuel puddle? It's going directly into the cylinders.

[godlameroso]

My first post here, so please be gentle. @ PlatinumZealot:

.....rough finish is not for aerodynamics. But to prevent fuel from puddling on the walls. The V10 engines were showered in fuel from those port injectors so i assume that you want to prevent any coallescing which would happen on a smooth surface..

Aren't the engine direct injection? Where would fuel puddle? It's going directly into the cylinders.

On the piston crowns and cylinder walls which contributes to wall quenching, and is unavoidable, although you can mitigate it to a certain extent by doing things with the head, chamber and piston crown itself. And obviously the injectors.

On the intake side you can tune the intakes so that the intake promotes mixing through tumble, and on the exhaust side, a certain amount of EGR can help fuel from pooling in the chamber, although air dilution by running lean has largely the same effect.

[nzjrs]

Any updates in the Japanese media or any other indications that Honda might bring an updated unit to Suzuka?

[loner]

Any updates in the Japanese media or any other indications that Honda might bring an updated unit to Suzuka?

"If there is a new spec engine or any improvements, that will be with a penalty and we will start last.

"So it is difficult to compensate if we want to start last with an extra horsepower, or do we want to do a perfect weekend and try to score points?

"It is not up to us. The Honda engineers will tell us if first if there is an evolution ready that we don't know yet and if there is something ready, if it is better to take that opportunity or not."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13219 ... de-dilemma

we will know in the coming 24 hours hopefully Fabrega source is very reliable and here will be one unit available.

[hemichromis]

Any updates in the Japanese media or any other indications that Honda might bring an updated unit to Suzuka?

"If there is a new spec engine or any improvements, that will be with a penalty and we will start last.

"So it is difficult to compensate if we want to start last with an extra horsepower, or do we want to do a perfect weekend and try to score points?

"It is not up to us. The Honda engineers will tell us if first if there is an evolution ready that we don't know yet and if there is something ready, if it is better to take that opportunity or not."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13219 ... de-dilemma

we will know in the coming 24 hours hopefully Fabrega source is very reliable and here will be one unit available.

Usually the higher scoring driver gets the update. Who's going to tell Alonso?

[kptaylor]

Ha!

But it would make sense to have one driver use the "spec 4.0" motor and the other to focus on grid position and points.

[etusch]

Ha!

But it would make sense to have one driver use the "spec 4.0" motor and the other to focus on grid position and points.

Yes. Change it after qual who is front he keeps position who is back he takes engine

[damager21]

Isn't Stoffel due for a change of his power unit this weekend irrespective of whether he gets Spec 3.7 or 4?

[godlameroso]

Honda should just bring the update if it works, screw penalties, even if it is Suzuka. The McLaren won't qualify well here on merit with the engine they have now. So do you want to start with a car that can make up positions, or start with a car that can at best hold on to what it does have? In any case I can't see them qualifying better than 10th, but probably around 12th or 13th is more likely. If you start dead last but with a faster car you're pretty much guaranteed a similar finishing position than a slow car that can't make up any positions on track and isn't expected to qualify very high to begin with.

I'd rather show up, take the penalties, qualify well up the order, put on a good show for the fans, then repeat by doing a heroic drive to finish in the points, then have good results for the last 4 races, at least go out on a high.

[loner]

Isn't Stoffel due for a change of his power unit this weekend irrespective of whether he gets Spec 3.7 or 4?

i assume no more new spec 3.7 it was just a stop gap til they have the spec 4

It's hoped 'Spec 4', which is expected to debut at the Japanese Grand Prix, will deliver another major boost, taking Honda past Renault, according to motorsport chief Yusuke Hasegawa.
"I think we can keep the same ratio of the increasing of the power but it is difficult to catch up Mercedes or Ferrari," Hasegawa told Motorsport.
"I really want to move ahead of Renault in terms of performance before the end of the season."
Asked if that was a realistic goal, given Honda's woes, Hasegawa hinted that data from their 'Spec 4' power unit showed positive gains.
"Yes," he replied. "I can see that on the data. I will not tell you the number, but we are closing the gap [to Renault]."

7 august aricle
https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/15557

[ziggy]

... Poor or no control over ignition timing.

Hence the massive vibration issues. The sound of this engines can be misleading because of the way the turbo is used ( MGUH and so on).

Offcourse this is only speculation.

[GhostF1]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 7173742593

Fabrega reporting Honda won't debut the new engine in Suzuka, to avoid penalties. Vandoorne will debut the new engine at the US GP and then Alonso in Mexico.