2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

[NathanOlder]

Also is it beyond belief that those seals cannot be replaced without the FIA knowing ?

[Phil]

Have you never seen such seals on CE products? I would expect a higher level of sophistication of seals used here in F1. None the less, if tampering or manipulation were to be discovered, i would assume the only logical proper response to be disqualification as that would be fraud. No idea though if this is clarified anywhere in the rules. Would be interesting...

[Phil]

There's an interesting article over at AMuS regarding changes that Ferrari made to especially Vettels car. Talks about him using a different suspension, while Kimi is using the old one.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 94341.html



Article:

They point out, while Hamilton has taken 93 points from the last 4 GPs, it was actually Ferrari who was quickest/strongest across at least 3 of those 4 races (Spa, Singapore and Malaysia) in which Vettel only scored 45 points. They go on to say that only in Monza, did they have trouble dialing in the car for the track.

Apparently, the upgrades brought Ferrari 3 tenths.They updated the frontwing, diffusor, underbody and deflector. In Malaysia, new barge boards were added. There are also changed to the air-intake system as the [new spec?] engine requires more efficient cooling, achieved by water and oil cooling (charge-cooler?). That's why Ferrari needed to place new cooling piping underneath the engine cover. Better cooling means more power.

The new front suspension can be seen in the picture above, comparing Vettel and Kimis car. It's been first introduced in a test at Hungary but then during the race at Spa. The modifications achieve that when Vettel turns in to a corner, it pulls the car into that corner, as a result of the car tilts into the inner wheel. They achieve this by the construction of the wishbone/triangular control arm and a different angle to the pushrod suspension.

*Note: maybe someone with a more in-depth technical english/german can translate the parts on how exactly they achieve this by the construction seen in the picture and explained in the article.

The challenge and key to performance is to get the car in a steady position at corner exit. This didn't quite work out in Monza. I assume it's quite sensitive to track layout, certain corners and perhaps setup. Anyway, Kimi has problem with it, so he has reverted to the old spec of front suspension and he has been doing quite well regardless. Apparently though, the front suspension is rather complicated in that it requires different wheel mounts, rims and parts of the suspension.

[Manoah2u]

There's an interesting article over at AMuS regarding changes that Ferrari made to especially Vettels car. Talks about him using a different suspension, while Kimi is using the old one.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 94341.html

https://imgr4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/F ... 122779.jpg

Article:

They point out, while Hamilton has taken 93 points from the last 4 GPs, it was actually Ferrari who was quickest/strongest across at least 3 of those 4 races (Spa, Singapore and Malaysia) in which Vettel only scored 45 points. They go on to say that only in Monza, did they have trouble dialing in the car for the track.

Apparently, the upgrades brought Ferrari 3 tenths.They updated the frontwing, diffusor, underbody and deflector. In Malaysia, new barge boards were added. There are also changed to the air-intake system as the [new spec?] engine requires more efficient cooling, achieved by water and oil cooling (charge-cooler?). That's why Ferrari needed to place new cooling piping underneath the engine cover. Better cooling means more power.

The new front suspension can be seen in the picture above, comparing Vettel and Kimis car. It's been first introduced in a test at Hungary but then during the race at Spa. The modifications achieve that when Vettel turns in to a corner, it pulls the car into that corner, as a result of the car tilts into the inner wheel. They achieve this by the construction of the wishbone/triangular control arm and a different angle to the pushrod suspension.

*Note: maybe someone with a more in-depth technical english/german can translate the parts on how exactly they achieve this by the construction seen in the picture and explained in the article.

The challenge and key to performance is to get the car in a steady position at corner exit. This didn't quite work out in Monza. I assume it's quite sensitive to track layout, certain corners and perhaps setup. Anyway, Kimi has problem with it, so he has reverted to the old spec of front suspension and he has been doing quite well regardless. Apparently though, the front suspension is rather complicated in that it requires different wheel mounts, rims and parts of the suspension.

perhaps it's just me but all i'm seeing is the same suspension in a different angle.
at most i see hints of different brake ducts, but that's about it. but i might be mistaken.

[Sevach]

I'm starting to think Ferrari pushed some stuff they were working for 2018 into this car ahead of schedule.

They introduced that new airbox and the engine doesn't stop having problems.

[Phil]

Apparently the spark plugs are a part that are outside of their control. It was run in and previously used...

Quite baffling. I wonder if they caused it by themselves by tampering with it before the race? What a pity.

I also wonder how far the element of fear goes inside Ferrari. I cant help but think that Ferrari puts more pressure on their team, engineers and staff because they see it as a necessity to win again.

There is also a point to be made that unfortunately the last few races have highlighted perfectly how “putting all your eggs in one basket” can bite you back.

If Ferrari had two equally competitive drivers, yes they might take points off of each other, but if reliability strikes one driver, the other may profit and keep the winning dream alive. A bit like at RB this year. Max has been undoubtedly quicker most of the time, but its Dan who has remained in front due to mot suffering as many DNFs and consistent drives.

By having a clear No. 1 and one they have been using as a pawn, now facing a lot of reliability issues means that their second driver Kimi is in no position to battle for the championship. Contrary, if Hamilton suddenly faces 3 races with technical and driver issues, Bottas would be right there in the mix.

[cplchanb]

well if it didnt happen last week with the shuffle it definitely will happen this week. somebody will definitely be fired from the engine department after a second engine related problem with their top driver. sergio mustve destroyed his tv this afternoon

[Schuttelberg]

Apparently the spark plugs are a part that are outside of their control. It was run in and previously used...

Quite baffling. I wonder if they caused it by themselves by tampering with it before the race? What a pity.

I also wonder how far the element of fear goes inside Ferrari. I cant help but think that Ferrari puts more pressure on their team, engineers and staff because they see it as a necessity to win again.

There is also a point to be made that unfortunately the last few races have highlighted perfectly how “putting all your eggs in one basket” can bite you back.

If Ferrari had two equally competitive drivers, yes they might take points off of each other, but if reliability strikes one driver, the other may profit and keep the winning dream alive. A bit like at RB this year. Max has been undoubtedly quicker most of the time, but its Dan who has remained in front due to mot suffering as many DNFs and consistent drives.

By having a clear No. 1 and one they have been using as a pawn, now facing a lot of reliability issues means that their second driver Kimi is in no position to battle for the championship. Contrary, if Hamilton suddenly faces 3 races with technical and driver issues, Bottas would be right there in the mix.

Can you prove this no.1 and no.2 theory? From the evidence of what I have seen Bottas seems to be a number 2 and Mercedes even has the customer teams using back markers as pawns to help Hamilton in the title fight.

[zeph]

I also wonder how far the element of fear goes inside Ferrari. I cant help but think that Ferrari puts more pressure on their team, engineers and staff because they see it as a necessity to win again.

That is the stuff of F1 legend, isn't it? The Commendatore firmly believed that fear was essential to get the most out of people, and he certainly ran the Scuderia that way.

Ironically, Ferrari's most successful period was when Todt and Brawn kept Montezemolo at bay and the F1 team could breathe a little more easily and just get on with the job. After they left, Montezemolo reverted back to the time-honored Cult of Fear, and well, the results speak for themselves, methinks.

Now Marchionne thinks he can do the same, brilliant. I'm just sitting here watching Ferrari make history repeat itself, and think about the words of Villeneuve and Alonso.

[Shrieker]

They've probably lost it now.

Well, at least Vettel and Ferrari can take comfort in the knowledge that neither party was wholly to blame. Both had their issues, and it takes a team to win. It's better this way psychologically, rather than managing to take it to the wire and losing it, and then looking at what might've been in retrospect with only the driver or the team to blame.

[PlatinumZealot]

A cracked intake manifold. A faulty TJI "spark plug." A risky chop to the left. Small failures but big consequences. That is motorsport.

Just gonna give my take on the new suspension here:



The way the top rear arm is bent in relation to the pushrod compared to the old version, it is for clearance due to the top bearing of the wheel hub being move forward by a few milimeters. In other words the new upright has less caster angle.

Less caster angle.. The stabilizing moment is less... Hence less force feedback.. But turn in should be sharper, less drop during turn in and there should be less wheel scrub.

[notsofast]

I wonder if those "historical payments" are having a negative influence. As long as Ferrari cars end up in the top 6, the tifosi will keep coming to the tracks wearing red shirt and waving red flags, and that will be enough to convince the rights holders to continue making those payments. Ferrari's survival probably doesn't depend on them winning championships. (Take this with a grain of salt please. I'm not suggesting that the team is slacking off on purpose.)

[iotar__]

I wonder if those "historical payments" are having a negative influence. As long as Ferrari cars end up in the top 6, the tifosi will keep coming to the tracks wearing red shirt and waving red flags, and that will be enough to convince the rights holders to continue making those payments. Ferrari's survival probably doesn't depend on them winning championships. (Take this with a grain of salt please. I'm not suggesting that the team is slacking off on purpose.)

- I had a similar thought but it applies more to the past (pre '14 or '09) and no incentive to win
- Marchionne - corporate incompetence and marketing are still responsible for drivers' failure but current (after '14) Ferrari is in a spend-win mode which makes this season even better

- Mercedes had a tricky transition to chassis-tyres rules, Red Bull despite whining about the engine know they lost it on the chassis side. Both were affected by the late suspension rules
- None of the above should be there in '18. Engines might be closer but it works both ways (RB).

- At least they have a bit of an excuse, as if this wasn't over before Suzuka. Mercedes had 1+2=3 five places gear box penalties, 2 engine failures in Spain, lost win in Baku (count the points) but it's all about 'luck' now.

[Sevach]

I also wonder how far the element of fear goes inside Ferrari. I cant help but think that Ferrari puts more pressure on their team, engineers and staff because they see it as a necessity to win again.

That is the stuff of F1 legend, isn't it? The Commendatore firmly believed that fear was essential to get the most out of people, and he certainly ran the Scuderia that way.

Ironically, Ferrari's most successful period was when Todt and Brawn kept Montezemolo at bay and the F1 team could breathe a little more easily and just get on with the job. After they left, Montezemolo reverted back to the time-honored Cult of Fear, and well, the results speak for themselves, methinks.

Now Marchionne thinks he can do the same, brilliant. I'm just sitting here watching Ferrari make history repeat itself, and think about the words of Villeneuve and Alonso.

Thus far they are only hiring and re-estructuring, if it continues it will be a nice change of pace from the people getting axed left, right and center we've been seeing since Todt left.

[ripper]

On italian Motorsport there's written that Maria Mendoza will become new Supplier Quality Manager (or quality check, something like that). She comes from FCA, she was leader of Supplier Quality Powertrain EMEA division.