Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dren]

Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."

If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.

To me, this is just damage mitigation. Honda is stating they aren't as bad as everyone thinks, yet they are still the worst. It's really hard to speculate exactly where they are. If the gap is smaller now than last year, then they should be at least finishing in the points because they were doing that last year around this time. It will be interesting to see where Mclaren is relative to the other Renault powered teams next year.

[dren]

Hasegawa is not Arai san, i dont believe every statement from Arai san. On the contrary, statement from Hasegawa always honest IMO. However maybe for qualy or full power, since when Honda turn up the setting their pace is similar to renault factory team. For race setting, honda tend to turn down the setting as their engine is really fragile, maybe because of lightweight aluminium piston and bearing problem in MGUH. If you want evidence, look at vandoorne in malaysia 7 first lap stint. Ferrari cannot pass him even with DRS. If reliability is sorted, i believe their race pace would similar to renault.

While his statements may be honest, they can be fairly vague and misleading, likely on purpose. You get the feeling from the article, and the title, that Honda is nipping at the heals of Renault, when in reality, they could be 5 hp closer than they were last year.

[j.yank]

Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."

If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think mechanical grip does bigger part of job at slow corners

The weight distribution and COG are important, too, where you stop in the corner and how you are going out. Probably the better torque in low RPM is also a factor (something about this were mentioned by Hasegawa). Interestingly, this interview coincidences with the info from Spanish media that the simulations of the McLaren-Renault package don't produce better results than what we see this year. Yes, these are pure speculations but somehow they confirm my suspicions that the Honda engine contributes significantly to the chassis performance.

[Snorked]

Honda couldn't use their qualifying mode in Suzuka because of the FIA?

Honda was unable to use qualifying mode at the Japan GP. Suzuka Special also seems to have prepared preparatory qualifying mode, but it has been forced to abandon its use by strengthening the regulation from FIA, in Suzuka where the power effect reaches as large as 0.2 sec / 10 kW, this disadvantage never ends It was not small.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... tWrCQGb-QQ

[dren]

Either that and/or the Honda lump isn't that bad at the moment.

It is impressive to see the evolution of how the PU looks from their first effort to what is in use now. The original PU looked like a cobbled together mess relative to the new PU. The new PU looks very well designed down to the small detail.

[factory_p]

Nice. Do you know if they use specialized devices(kistler, avl) or ecu for the analysis

I'm not sure but if you look at the past years, people like AVL have developped surprisingly small and light cylinder pressure sensors (at a price few engine designers can pay..) so I would guess F1 and WEC regulations encouraging lean combustion clearly forced these manufacturers to develop products which were better suited to onboard measurements than the good old bench sensors. But more than the sensors, I think the biggest job has been done on the amplifiers for these sensors which have drastically reduced in size and weight in order to fit somewhere under the bonnet of these cars.
As for the ECU, it is standardized in F1 as we know, but each team is free to develop his own software.

[Lucky]

great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts

[3jawchuck]

great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts

Not much of substance though, mostly opinion and quite a bit of conjecture.
Still, I am of the same opinion. I am fully expecting and dreading Toro Rosso Honda to be a disaster.

[NL_Fer]

Any ideas how Honda’s quali mode works? Power in Q3 looks good, almost comparible with Renault or even the customer Mercedes of Williams and Force India. But both drivers are going backwards in the race.

Is would it just saving the new (split)turbo, which still seems to be made from glass.

[zack!]

Even if Honda is closing the gap at the end of season with upcoming v4.0, I think timing is not at their adavntage compare.
What I understand in term of media leak, is that Renault still optimizing current PU by SW tuning (RBR seems happy with last 2 SW upgrades), then has 2 big dvpt versions ahead, maturing on dyno, one running from monthes is told to put renault on par with ferrari and mercedes, the other allowing to go beyond them.We also knwo that a "magic button" function for quali and "racing overtake" is developped by Renault, but we don't know on which version, probably on the second one. Of course ferrari and mercedes also prepare future PU.
So I am afraid, that honda is closing but in front of a 6 month/1 year late target, so next year the gap will still be there...

[easydolezip]

I have been reading this thread for months and have stayed quiet. Great information. Keep up the great work.
That said - for those that are saying Honda is going to surpass Renault. Don't start counting your chickens.
IMO - I don't believe Honda will produce a competitive package in this PU era. I hope I'm wrong.
During the V10 era, the Honda PU was NOT competitive. If any of you have read the book written by Brawn, you will recall he said (i'm paraphrasing), they essentially shoved a MB engine and the car became competitive, and went like a bat out of hell. The data showed the MB engine was better even though 1) it was no optimized for the chassi on mounting points 2) 0 prior data on engine 3) very little fine tuning and resources. Essentially what i got out of it was that Honda F1 team would have been competitive with their chassi if they did not use a Honda PU. Anyways i'll remain hush.
p.s I' understand Japanese culture is very stubborn. Specifically when it comes to a Corp/ Management. My family is Japanese - a lot of friends are Japanese. I just don't see Honda doing a turn around w/ Toro Rosso like some hear believe.

Good Day!

[Singabule]

The final version of honda V10 is a monster, while the v8 is a ground tamper, but it is still far better than cosworth and still stronger than renault unit.

[ringo]

From what i remember honda engines werent respected because they blew up in a spectacular fashion quite often.
Thats my memory of the v10 days.

The good engines to have were bmw, benz and ferrari. Renault was known for its narrow angle to give good aero.

Honda maybe had a few 1 off powerful units for their home race and thats about that. Correct me if my memory is wrong.

Anyhow, i dont think honda will catch renault. We are all assuming renault are standing still. Renault will be a big threat in 2018 and abiteboul seems very hungry to bring all the resources in to make that happen. I can't see the same kind of all means necessary mindset at honda. They want to have their cake and eat it.
So far i think honda uses all the key technology but its not as refined. The tji etc.

[NL_Fer]

I remember the V10 were very good, remember people had problems overtaking the Ligier Mugen and than it was a dog in the corners. V8 though was a dissaster. Honda pulled out end off 2008 season, so arrangements were made for a Mercedes during the winter and dropped in around Christmas. I remember a Jenson Button interview, he was lyrical about the Mercedes’ power and drivability.

Just don’t forget that magic double diffuser.

Still i am hopefull, seems like this year Honda made the same progression as 2015+2016 combined. They have the split turbo, just need to perfect it’s reliability and more important the Japanese engineers now understand the design goals for MGU-H harvesting and deployment. This weekend i really noticed from the on screen telemetry, how the Mercedes ES% was gaining during WOT. It means MGU-H was harvasting more power than MGU-K can deploy. That is Honda’s goal for this PU.

[dren]

I remember the V10 were very good, remember people had problems overtaking the Ligier Mugen and than it was a dog in the corners. V8 though was a dissaster. Honda pulled out end off 2008 season, so arrangements were made for a Mercedes during the winter and dropped in around Christmas. I remember a Jenson Button interview, he was lyrical about the Mercedes’ power and drivability.

Just don’t forget that magic double diffuser.

Still i am hopefull, seems like this year Honda made the same progression as 2015+2016 combined. They have the split turbo, just need to perfect it’s reliability and more important the Japanese engineers now understand the design goals for MGU-H harvesting and deployment. This weekend i really noticed from the on screen telemetry, how the Mercedes ES% was gaining during WOT. It means MGU-H was harvasting more power than MGU-K can deploy. That is Honda’s goal for this PU.

The V8 was going to receive a 'reliability' upgrade much like the other makes received, but Honda pulled out. The Renault became much more competitive with the Mercedes and Ferrari engines when it received the bump, too.