Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dren]

Any ideas how Honda’s quali mode works? Power in Q3 looks good, almost comparible with Renault or even the customer Mercedes of Williams and Force India. But both drivers are going backwards in the race.

Is would it just saving the new (split)turbo, which still seems to be made from glass.

Actually, if it wasn't for Vandoorne running wide and Alonso starting from the back, they would have finished in the points on merit. Yes, there appears to be a qualification mode, which some have said is around 25hp, but it looks like the cars aren't bad in the race, either.

My guess is Honda is running different ignition timing to allow for better power, yet more knock for a brief period of time. It may also have something do do with the ERS and how it operates. The cars have a full lap to charge the ES to the max before they run the next lap. Then you have open waste gate running as others have speculated about.

[Shandow]

great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaAFfY45cJI

At the time when he moved from the Bar to Honda the car was designed by Geoff Willis so that's fine when the inexperienced Shuhei Nakamoto was put in charge of the team and in Geoff's place they hired Mariano to draw the car was a total disaster because besides the bad design did not fit the Bridgestone tires.

Another mistake of Honda was to have switched from fuel suppliers and ELF and Castrol lubricants to ENEOS the engine was developed to use one thing and they change to another, I do not understand until today because they did it if the set was progressing, they changed everything detonated the project.

At the time of Barrichello and Button the car was so bad that the Super Aguri that used the chassis and old engine of Honda had better results than Honda itself ....

After having regressed for 2 years knowing that the project was aimlessly hired Ross Brawn to put order in the house and develop the 2009 chassis, Honda sold the team for banana price being that more than 70% of the project was already finalized , but the Japanese say it's the biggest asshole Honda has ever done.

http://news.playf1.net/special/hondas-s ... r-revealed

In this link above some details of the 2009 Honda car.

[Nonserviam85]

Maybe people here are young and cannot remember that the V10 Mugen-Hondas were capable of making Jordan a championship contender at one point during the 1999 season. I was also amazed back at the time how bad the V8 Hondas were compared to the V10.
I agree the chassis was also bad but the engine drivability was so poor...

[dren]

V10 vs V8 power



The pdf file can be found here: http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_02e.pdf

[HPD]

Honda is confident it will be able to improve its reliability record next season as a result of having a stable baseline to work with over the winter.

Honda's head of F1 project Yusuke Hasegawa said he was "ashamed" of the penalty during the race weekend, but he believes retaining the current power unit concept for next season will lead to a clear step forward in terms of reliability.

"This year, the biggest issue was we couldn't confirm the base power unit from the start," Hasegawa told RACER. "So all the time we needed to develop and we needed to update, and introduce [updates] at a grand prix before we could confirm the reliability or the performance.

"For next year, of course we haven't confirmed it yet, but at least we have the baseline that is the current engine. So we can use this engine at least, and we can circulate our development in the background. Then as soon as we have confirmed the reliability and the performance, we can introduce it at the grand prix.
"That way we have got more room to consider the performance and reliability before introducing upgrades."

"The car showed some good pace [at Suzuka]. I think we were quicker than Williams, quicker than Haas and quicker than Renault. So I think we had the performance to score a point if we had a good start."

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/144936-hon ... ty-in-2018

In this type of conflict, there are always good and bad. Have you defended yourself enough?

Hasegawa: I understand what you mean ... We had our problems, and McLaren was his. I could have pointed out the chassis problems encountered, but it would have been pointless to point who is responsible for what and for what. We had our problems, and we were not in a position to comment ...
http://www.autohebdo.fr/f1/actualites/h ... 89328.html

[PlatinumZealot]

Any ideas how Honda’s quali mode works? Power in Q3 looks good, almost comparible with Renault or even the customer Mercedes of Williams and Force India. But both drivers are going backwards in the race.

Is would it just saving the new (split)turbo, which still seems to be made from glass.

Actually, if it wasn't for Vandoorne running wide and Alonso starting from the back, they would have finished in the points on merit. Yes, there appears to be a qualification mode, which some have said is around 25hp, but it looks like the cars aren't bad in the race, either.

My guess is Honda is running different ignition timing to allow for better power, yet more knock for a brief period of time. It may also have something do do with the ERS and how it operates. The cars have a full lap to charge the ES to the max before they run the next lap. Then you have open waste gate running as others have speculated about.

Remember knock damages power delivery. For street cars a fraction of a second of poor power is acceptable. For an F1 when a milisecond can lose you the race every bit of power is desired.. I don't think there is any advantage to running the engine in knock. None at all.

[63l8qrrfy6]

But the thing is that they run it so close to knock that they only get rare events - they don't get full blown knock on all cylinders on every power stroke.

This is the reason they use cylinder pressure sensors - they are much more accurate at detecting incipient knock than acoustic sensors - allowing them to run closer to the threshold.

As someone has correctly stated previously, the number of knock events is what limits the number of laps at higher engine modes. Of course it is undesirable to have a couple bangs during a lap but it more than makes up for it in extra power gained.

[Del Boy]

great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts

I agree great article. Its interesting that a lot of posts think it doesn't belong in this thread and technically worthless, then spend time posting about an engine from 2005-2009. Conveniently forgetting that Darren Heath is McLaren official photographer with a full access to MTC and probably has more insight into the McLaren Honda relationship than majority of forum members.

[dren]

great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts

I agree great article. Its interesting that a lot of posts think it doesn't belong in this thread and technically worthless, then spend time posting about an engine from 2005-2009. Conveniently forgetting that Darren Heath is McLaren official photographer with a full access to MTC and probably has more insight into the McLaren Honda relationship than majority of forum members.

It is technically worthless, however the insight is welcomed and would be a perfect fit in the team thread.

[Squid]

I'd take whatever Darren Heath says with a big, big grain of salt. He writes well (in a prose sense) but he takes several liberties with the content, by which I mean he makes stuff up.

The most egregious IMO was his "Heads on a plate" article which he wrote about Hamilton and Paddy Lowe having an argument after the race where Hamilton supposedly wanted to go home instead of going to the cerimony. After Mercedes called him out on it, he quietly changed the article.

His "insight" appears to be made up of stuff he daydreams of, or things he wished would actually happen in reality.

[amho]

Why is the fuel piping going into the valve cover (on the left side)?

I see the cam driven pump on the right.(or maybe it's just something else bolted to the valve cover?) but.. look.. no fuel lines to be seen otherwise? hmm..

Those spark plugs might be combination injectors.. TJI... with an internal passage built into the valve cover that goes into the injectors from there?

Or maybe i am just crazy, and the injector are side entry hidden from view..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLXW2BfUEAEAY3Y.jpg

that's bosch's cam drive fuel pump yes, because it looks the same as last year's.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/438/32483 ... 4a2f_o.png
Last year's fuel rail or fuel line was above the coils, can not see from photos somehow but in person it's just too clear to miss.
2015's engine had side injection so fuel rail was not visible. 2016 they switched to top injection.
(sources: japanese motor magazine interviewing Honda engineers sometime in winter 2016)
This year's there is no visible fuel line on the cover. In person at least you can see that fuel line goes to the back of the cover from the pump but cannot tell if it's side or top but i'd guess internal passage in the cover as well.

Since Mr.wazari's concern about efficiency I'm thinking about effect of every single element on efficiency and energy conversion.
Does anyone knows the advantage of using cam driven fuel pump against electrical motor driven fuel pump in these f1 engines?
correct me here as I guess that:
electrical pump has packaging advantages?
by electrical pump there is a possibility to adjust pressure-flow by pwm control of electro motor in neccessity? while by cam drive pressure increases while rev goes upward then pressure regulator adjust pressure and therefore some energy loss.
cam drive pump still consume power during off throttle phases while electrical pump could be deactivated.( I estimate that fuel pump consumes 3.5 hp ( fuel densuty 0.77 kg/lt, fuel consumption rate of 100 kg/hour, fuel rail pressure of 600 bar, pump efficiency of 85%), so in a lap of 75 sec that 20% of lap time is in off throttle state then 39150 j( for 15 sec off throttle time) could be recovered by mgu-k instead of loss by cam drive pump which is worthy of 2% of mgu-k max of 2mj.
cam drive has less energy loss caused by energy type conversion (while in electrical pump there is energy loss in mechanical to electrical then to mechanical again)?

[henry]

[quote=amho post_id=723656 time=1508098985 user_id=31834
Does anyone knows the advantage of using cam driven fuel pump against electrical motor driven fuel pump in these f1 engines?
[/quote]

Cam driven is legal. Electrical is not.

5.13 Engineancillaries:
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

[PlatinumZealot]

Since Mr.wazari's concern about efficiency I'm thinking about effect of every single element on efficiency and energy conversion.
Does anyone knows the advantage of using cam driven fuel pump against electrical motor driven fuel pump in these f1 engines?
correct me here as I guess that:
electrical pump has packaging advantages?
by electrical pump there is a possibility to adjust pressure-flow by pwm control of electro motor in neccessity? while by cam drive pressure increases while rev goes upward then pressure regulator adjust pressure and therefore some energy loss.
cam drive pump still consume power during off throttle phases while electrical pump could be deactivated.( I estimate that fuel pump consumes 3.5 hp ( fuel densuty 0.77 kg/lt, fuel consumption rate of 100 kg/hour, fuel rail pressure of 600 bar, pump efficiency of 85%), so in a lap of 75 sec that 20% of lap time is in off throttle state then 39150 j( for 15 sec off throttle time) could be recovered by mgu-k instead of loss by cam drive pump which is worthy of 2% of mgu-k max of 2mj.
cam drive has less energy loss caused by energy type conversion (while in electrical pump there is energy loss in mechanical to electrical then to mechanical again)?

Easy answer. Mechanical pumps a have higher energy density. Are not affected by heat. No magentic filed interferant. Lighter and more reliable.

There is no reason to turn off the pump. It is just as part of the engine as the oil pumps are.

[ringo]

You may use an electronic pressure control valve to return fuel to the tank to control fuel flow. So the cam drive is fine. It's also more compact as PZ says.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I think that they meter the fuel at the pump inlet therefore the mass flow off throttle is very small hence the power required to drive it is also almost neglijible.

The disadvantage in doing so is that the dynamic loads on the cam lobe are pretty high at low chamber fill ratios.