Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[santos]

He gained an advantage to cut the corner, Kimi’s move could have been a problem. But, I think it’s a fair ruling but in the spirit of the race, I wouldn’t of given him the penalty.

That's the kind of thinking i don't understand... it's like saying in football, that a player scored a goal with a hand, but for the spirit of the game, that's ok. There isn't no fault.
If he cut the corner on the inside... with ALL four wheels outside the track, that's not fair.

[Shrieker]

I think if you watch closely there was space for Maxstappen to put at least one of his outside tires on the white line while overtaking, albeit very small. So this overtake was possible with no infringement, at least theoretically. Extremely hard to cut it so fine whilst running so close to another car on a fast corner tho. Another thing is, he ran the risk of bottoming out on a kerb that was inclined towards the track and crashing into Kimi at speed, had he tried putting left side wheels on the white line, and right side wheels out of the track past the kerbs. Maybe that's why he went fully off instead. Makes sense to me.

[jz11]

I think stewards need some leeway for that track limit rule to be effective, IMHO so far they are doing a really bad job enforcing it though.

Here is the case where you need exception : https://youtu.be/aljfbhxtdyc?t=4m31s
Max divebombed Bottas and proceeded to push him off the track while being side by side, I argue that Max may have had no chance to turn more in at the exit to make room for Bottas, room, which Bottas was entitled to, since they were side by side, but Max pushed him off the track limits, now if the rule was very strict, Bottas would have needed to slow down when he saw there was no room for him on the track, and let Max go, and then open an inquiry with stewards about Max not leaving the room for him, but instead what happened, he went wide off the track, maintained speed (mostly, thus technically still gaining an advantage), and tried to prolong the fight by reentering the track side by side with Max, which didn't quite work out.

So some gray area needs to exist in that rule, but also the drivers need to understand and respect that, not use it as an excuse to cut an inside of a corner, meaning - shortening the track and the rest is already very much talked about.

I totally agree that the penalty for cutting the track short was in order, else this nonsense would continue and lead to even uglier things in the future. If you stretch this really, I mean REALLY far, Max could make some donuts around the start finish line by going off on the grass, go backwards, and cross the line again and advance the lap counter and claim - look, everyone is already leaving the track, so this must be legal!

[mrluke]

I thought Liberty Media were going to move us away from these stupid penalties that change the race results.

Max had a stunning drive and the last lap move to snatch a podium was the cherry on the cake for both his drive and the race. Kicking him off the podium left a bitter taste in the mouth and harmed F1 as a brand.

If you don't want people driving there then don't make it tarmac.

If you are going to enforce track limits then do it everywhere all the time.

[adrianjordan]

Either enforce it 100% consistently or don't bother.

How hard would it be to have sensors that monitor when the car leaves the track limits and make it an automatic and consistent penalty when it happens, like speeding in the pit lane.

[NathanOlder]

Can we not all agree that cutting a corner and making the lap shorter is far worse than running wide on an exit to a corner.

Making a lap shorter vs making a lap longer.

Plus most of the actions people are using about other drivers are mostly defending a position rather than taking a position. And it seems drivers always get a bit more leeway on defending.

[marvin78]

@NathanOlder: I agree and I see the consistency in exactly that fact.

[n_anirudh]

Whatever happened to the cheat loops??

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/whit ... on-945024/

IF (and only IF) Ferrari had protested, they would have awarded VER the penalty anyways.

As Bernie used to say, reassess the situation with a wall next to the track limit. VER would have not been able to make that corner.

[Shrieker]

I thought Liberty Media were going to move us away from these stupid penalties that change the race results.

Max had a stunning drive and the last lap move to snatch a podium was the cherry on the cake for both his drive and the race. Kicking him off the podium left a bitter taste in the mouth and harmed F1 as a brand.

If you don't want people driving there then don't make it tarmac.

If you are going to enforce track limits then do it everywhere all the time.

Your response lacks perspective imo. Are you saying people shouldn't take to the outside of track boundaries when they're pushed ? Like when Bottas was pushed to the outside by Ricci and then later by Max ? Max's last lap overtake does not compare to these in any shape or form.

Can we not all agree that cutting a corner and making the lap shorter is far worse than running wide on an exit to a corner.

Making a lap shorter vs making a lap longer.

Plus most of the actions people are using about other drivers are mostly defending a position rather than taking a position. And it seems drivers always get a bit more leeway on defending.

Agreed on all counts.

[Phil]

Personally, when applying a penalty, the question I would ask myself as a steward is:

A - was the overtake conducted in a fair manner?
B - why did he leave the track?
C - was an advantage gained by leaving the track? if yes, how much of an advantage was gained?
D - was the move potentially dangerous?

What irks me about the penalty is point #B & #C.

I have now watched the incident numerous times and IMO, it is very clear that there is a gap when Max decides to go for it. He was carrying more speed and taking a more direct path into a gap that was there. When Max moved along side (he was already partly alongside), Kimi starts to move in to the corner to the apex. Max had three options: Brake hard (might not have been enough), stay alongside and hope Kimi sees him in time or take avoiding action. Max decided to do the latter. He moved to the right which put his trajectory beyond the track limits at 250kmh. At that point, he's a passenger in his own car. Braking no longer becomes an option, neither does turning in or not. At that point, Kimi had already realized Max was there and left room.

This goes directly into point #C - Was an advantage gained by leaving the track? Yes and no. He clearly shortened the track by taking that path, but there was no reason to. Kimi did leave space (at that point probably conceding the position), so even if Max had stayed on the corner inside line (perhaps with two wheels), he would have been side by side and made the corner and most likely taken the position. So in my opinion, the advantage he gained is smaller and was not necessary. There was room there. Unfortunately, Max at that point couldn't react to that and change his trajectory, he was already committed. So all in all, *I* would not have penalized him on that reasoning.

Now if the situation had been different, for example Kimi covering the inside line and Max moving beyond the track to "short-cut" the corner to get by, well that would be a clear offense. I think the fact that Max reacted to Kimi while already being sufficiently along side and therefore "being forced off the track" is what caused this entire incident in the first place. I feel had the stewards looked at it from this point-of-view, that the result would have been more accepted by fans and spectators and perhaps even the drivers. I'm not even sure Kimi realized (taking his post-race comments) that Max was momentarily off the track and had already conceded finishing in 4th.

[Edax]

Whatever happened to the cheat loops??

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/whit ... on-945024/

IF (and only IF) Ferrari had protested, they would have awarded VER the penalty anyways.

As Bernie used to say, reassess the situation with a wall next to the track limit. VER would have not been able to make that corner.

Reassesing the situation with a wall would end up in a wreck. At the apex there was less than a tires width between raikkonens tires and the white line. Now the RB is one of the skinnier cars but you need a serious size zero to fit in that gap.

So blindly following the rules would mean penalising VES for overtaking offline, and RAI for not leaving a cars width. Make it 5 seconds each.

If RB really wanted to they could have protested RAI for not leaving space. That could reverse the result while saving the FIA the embarrassment of reversing a descision.

But I guess RB is actually fine with this result. It has delivered them tons of positive media attention, they didn’t need the points anyway, and they have gained some serious leverage with the FIA. After being scorned by just about every famous racing driver around, and by having their website crashed by angry dutch fans, the FIA will think twice about every potential future judgement against RB.

[strad]

No
And this from a proponent of making them stay between the lines, but you cannot allow drivers to do the same all day then change the rule just to punish Max because Gary doesn't like him.

[VivecF1]

The penalty was fair in itself. Max did quite clearly cross that line... a lot... However, you have to ask yourself why penalties and rules are there in the first place.
If you cannot keep a consistent schedule of penalties, then you should either rewrite them, or have other people enforce them.

[Manoah2u]

The penalty was fair as he made a clear breach of the rules.

what was not fair was that nobody else was given a penalty despite doing exactly the same. Raikkonen from all cases also gained an advantage and went off the track with all 4's.



Yet Ferrari Instant Assist did nothing.
And as Max said, and Christian Horner didn't want to expose, the FIA steward is biased towards Max. He did the same in Mexico last year and then there was that issue of Japan with influencing Mercedes ' Paddy Lowe to make a move whilst Toto was already in the air. Which was embarassing and assumed that the steward would then be ousted and taken from his position. Also, Salo stated it was Charlie's decision so Jos, rightfully so, demanded he steps down - because it's not the first time this nonsense happens.
FIA is getting completely covered in controversy and inconsistency under Todt, but Charlie Whiting is a real disease for the sport.

Had the FIA been consistant and handed out penalties to other drivers, sure. But that never was the case, ONLY with Max in the LAST MINUTE, bending to Ferrari's crysong.

[n_anirudh]

....

Reassesing the situation with a wall would end up in a wreck. At the apex there was less than a tires width between raikkonens tires and the white line. Now the RB is one of the skinnier cars but you need a serious size zero to fit in that gap.

So blindly following the rules would mean penalising VES for overtaking offline, and RAI for not leaving a cars width. Make it 5 seconds each.

If RB really wanted to they could have protested RAI for not leaving space. That could reverse the result while saving the FIA the embarrassment of reversing a descision.

But I guess RB is actually fine with this result. It has delivered them tons of positive media attention, they didn’t need the points anyway, and they have gained some serious leverage with the FIA. After being scorned by just about every famous racing driver around, and by having their website crashed by angry dutch fans, the FIA will think twice about every potential future judgement against RB.

Exactly, VER would not have pulled that move when a wall was present. He would have ended up behind RAI on that corner.

RAI was ahead of him , i.e. not ahead of his front wheel. The corner is a tight right hander, RAI was on the racing line.

Results cannot be changed. The decision is done. C Horner has met with the stewards who explained it was unfair advantage.

No, I sincerely hope not, they should and will penalise MV and RBR if any infringement occurs in the future. Its their duty to do so.
And crashing the FIA website hasnt changed the results, has it - and I thought the Dutch are better