2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[j.yank]

Higher rear and front wing doesn't mean automatically more drag. They have different functions. Clever (not higher) front wing directs the airflow in such way that minimize its impact with the chassis parts until it hits the rear wing. The rear wings directs the vector of force down to the rear wheels without additional drag penalties. If you don't have optimal front wing geometry, you can have higher downforce but even higher drag coefficient because the whole body of the car will push the chassis in opposite direction to the motion. My guess is that the new front wing of McLaren is much better, in this way lowering the drag force, an improving the overall speed of the car but it has long way to go to achieve the RedBull's efficiency.

Except for the floor, there isn't a part on the car's body, that isn't going to give increased drag at higher level of AoA. That is a cold fact. The only question here is, the more intelligent (harmounous flow from part to part) the air is flown on the car, the more you can generate the downforce. In essence, for the same amount of aero parts different cars may produce different levels of downforce (based on how they are being used), but cause equal amount of drag penalty.

Floor is one part that can be used for optimum downforce generation through Venturi effect. That is the reason why a lot of purists, want higher levels of ground effect and want a lot of these wings be simplified, for better racing. Lowering the wake with reduced wing elements, helps car follow closer.

Actually it depends which part we are talking about. The increase of front wing area with 10% (just as example) will push up the drag of the front wing but at the same time, if the geometry is good, it can lower the air impact on the rest of the chassis that have much more area, and in this way lowering the overall drag of the car. If RedBull simply have more drag it means that they have much more powerful engine in order almost to level Mercedes and Ferrari. I don't think this is the case. IMO they have more downforce with less drag.

[mrluke]

Floor is one part that can be used for optimum downforce generation through Venturi effect. That is the reason why a lot of purists, want higher levels of ground effect and want a lot of these wings be simplified, for better racing. Lowering the wake with reduced wing elements, helps car follow closer.

Is there any evidence that supports the view that lower wake helps car follow closer of that less wing downforce helps cars follow closer?

Im going to suggest that at Mexico it was much harder for cars to follow closely. Further due to the lower air density even having one of the longest straights in F1 and DRS it was very difficult for one car to get past another slower car.

I think that running very high drag would actually make overtaking easier as the slipstream would be a much higher benefit.

[hurril]

Why is it so hard for people to accept that Mercedes supported Honda? They were lacking 120-150 bhp, couldn't keep the engine running for more than a few laps- and this all while powering one of the biggest brands/teams in F1.

Honda would have been a stupid and ignorant organisation if they wouldn't have accepted Mercs support. And we all know that Honda is all but stupid.

I don't think it's a matter of something or other being hard to accept as much as it comes down to whether or not this is true.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I find it quite unlikely that Honda shied away from using well established consultancy companies, yet somehow agreed to work with Mercedes.

Sounds like the guys in Brixworth have a special department dedicated to helping their competitors...not!

[NL_Fer]

Honda pulling of the split turbo within one year, hard to believe there were no hints and tips.

[makecry]

Zak Brown: "We tried to find a solution with the Honda already in the pre-championship test. But we did not want to get to divorce. First there was an attempt to solve technical problems

At Montecarlo we realized that despite all the efforts, the discussions and the help Mercedes had given it to Honda, we would not come to the head of the situation.

So in Canada we decided that it was going to plan B. And to Silverstone, at the end of July, the real dealings began. But all the pieces of the puzzle went to the parrot just a few days before the announcement, which was in the middle of September. "
http://www.gazzetta.it/Formula-1/05-11- ... 9215.shtml

Personally I do not believe in this man's word. Typical of people who want to be the center of attention, defame the others.
I can say in a technical forum that I do not like the color "Brown". (?

TBF, it's google translate. The earlier interview given by EB/Zak said that they offered to get Mercedes to help them with Ojjeh mediating that deal but HOnda refused. I think it was on autosport or something.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Honda pulling of the split turbo within one year, hard to believe there were no hints and tips.

You mean the 12 turbos per driver that they have used this year? Yeah, fantastic feat.

[stevesingo]

Yes, it does.

Race Speed Traps from Mexico:
Fernando Alonso - McLaren Honda - 348.0 - 13:27:10.000 Posted during a tow from VAN
Max Verstappen - Red Bull Racing - 345.3 - 13:41:13 in clean air

Qualification Speed Traps from Mexico:
Max Verstappen - Red Bull Racing - 345.7 - 13:05:40.000 in clean air running first on the road
Fernando Alonso - McLaren Honda - 344.4 - 13:08:53.000 Posted whilst following GRO

Just for the sake of clarity.

For the sake of clarity, during the race Alonso passed Vandoorn 3 laps earlier - at 13:27:10.000 he was 5 sec ahead of Vandoorn. In the qualification at the 8-9 minute of the first qualification GRO is already in the box, and ALO makes its first lap after going out. Thanks for the clarification.

In a moment of luck, you happen to find something which supports your weak argument and make someone else look stupid.

I am stupid. Post should have read...

Race Speed Traps from Mexico:
Fernando Alonso - McLaren Honda - 348.0 - 13:27:10.000 Posted whilst following GRO
Max Verstappen - Red Bull Racing - 345.3 - 13:41:13 in clean air running first on the road

Qualification Speed Traps from Mexico:
Max Verstappen - Red Bull Racing - 345.7 - 13:05:40.000 in clean air
Fernando Alonso - McLaren Honda - 344.4 - 13:08:53.000 Posted during a tow from VAN

Bett run off and check that now. You might not like what you find.

Qualifying VAN without tow 335.9kph. Only 10kph difference.

Now with the same drag and the slower car having 890hp, to get extra 10kph in top speed you need an extra 90hp or 980hp.

If McLaren has more drag, how much more drag must it have if the engines are equal?

10.6%!

I would state that the RedBull is probably more efficient than the McLaren. But, not to the tune of over 10% less drag for a given downforce.

+1% drag 82hp
+2% drag 73hp
+3% drag 65hp
+4% drag 56hp
+5% drag 48hp
+6% drag 39hp
+7% drag 31hp
+8% drag 22hp
+9% drag 14hp
+10% drag 5hp

Basis of calcs are air density of 0.98kg/m3
Coefficient of rolling resistance 0.045
CdA of RB 1.614.

I did the same math for Austin comparing against the Renault and got an equal drag hp deficit of 73hp. In Mexico I get 69hp.

[techman]

I dont think so tbh. FIA conducted tests and concluded that the Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault PUs were within 0.3s around Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya. Honda is nowhere near that tbh.

.
that was very early on 2017. they did the tests. since they honda have improved and brought many upgrades and renault not so much.

I wonder if he was refering to the spec they had to rule out (again) due to reliability problems...

That´s a bold statement when reality on track is they can´t pass a 2016 Ferrari PU not even with DRS and a slipstream on a track with a very long straight

.
yeah considering how much drag mclaren are running, no wonder. anyway its only few months before the mclaren chassis performance will show up and redbull will just put them into shame. so get ready. i expect over half a second difference advantage to redbull in chassis performance alone

Why is Redbull supposed to be a benchmark? Please explain it to me?

because they have most efficient chassis out there, good efficient downforce and not drag like what mclaren are running. they are getting good downforce without losing out much on top speed on straights, unlike renaults f1 team or TR

[GhostF1]

Zak Brown: "We tried to find a solution with the Honda already in the pre-championship test. But we did not want to get to divorce. First there was an attempt to solve technical problems

At Montecarlo we realized that despite all the efforts, the discussions and the help Mercedes had given it to Honda, we would not come to the head of the situation.

So in Canada we decided that it was going to plan B. And to Silverstone, at the end of July, the real dealings began. But all the pieces of the puzzle went to the parrot just a few days before the announcement, which was in the middle of September. "
http://www.gazzetta.it/Formula-1/05-11- ... 9215.shtml

Personally I do not believe in this man's word. Typical of people who want to be the center of attention, defame the others.
I can say in a technical forum that I do not like the color "Brown". (?

TBF, it's google translate. The earlier interview given by EB/Zak said that they offered to get Mercedes to help them with Ojjeh mediating that deal but HOnda refused. I think it was on autosport or something.

This. It was mentioned that Mansour was not impressed when Honda refused assistance from Merc.

[stevesingo]

yeah considering how much drag mclaren are running, no wonder. anyway its only few months before the mclaren chassis performance will show up and redbull will just put them into shame. so get ready. i expect over half a second difference advantage to redbull in chassis performance alone

10.6% more by my calcs if the engines output are the "same".

Not likely. 2-3% at most, which puts the engine deficit at 65-75hp.

[sidni]

Personally I do not believe in this man's word. Typical of people who want to be the center of attention, defame the others.
I can say in a technical forum that I do not like the color "Brown". (?

TBF, it's google translate. The earlier interview given by EB/Zak said that they offered to get Mercedes to help them with Ojjeh mediating that deal but HOnda refused. I think it was on autosport or something.

This. It was mentioned that Mansour was not impressed when Honda refused assistance from Merc.

so whats happening on ilmor assistance in the background ?

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Floor is one part that can be used for optimum downforce generation through Venturi effect. That is the reason why a lot of purists, want higher levels of ground effect and want a lot of these wings be simplified, for better racing. Lowering the wake with reduced wing elements, helps car follow closer.

Is there any evidence that supports the view that lower wake helps car follow closer of that less wing downforce helps cars follow closer?

Im going to suggest that at Mexico it was much harder for cars to follow closely. Further due to the lower air density even having one of the longest straights in F1 and DRS it was very difficult for one car to get past another slower car.

I think that running very high drag would actually make overtaking easier as the slipstream would be a much higher benefit.

Link -> Lewis Hamilton says boosting downforce to lower lap times in 2017 is the 'worst idea'

"I know they're talking about giving us more aerodynamics, which for me is like the worst idea. It just shows that, for me, they don't really know what they're trying to solve.

"From a driver's point of view, we want more grip from the tyres; we want less wake coming from the car in front so therefore we can get closer.

This will help you gain some more understanding of the "Wake" issue.
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22412

[Wazari]

In my experience, you can't always believe what the press writes, team principles rarely speak the facts and when they do, spin them to make the team and/or themselves look better than maybe they actually are.

[techman]

hi Wazari,
have you got any info about the current spec 3.8 power figures.