2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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etusch
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Auto Motor und Sport reports that the Renault power unit has a “completely different architecture”.

McLaren designer Matt Morris confirms: “We had to redesign the clutch and the gearbox.”

The cooling and radiator requirements are also completely different, with Morris admitting that McLaren will simply rely on Renault’s recommendations for the first year.

“Only with more experience does it make sense to develop something of our own,” he said.
http://www.f1undercover.com/mclaren-ada ... lt-engine/

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bauc
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 13:59
Auto Motor und Sport reports that the Renault power unit has a “completely different architecture”.

McLaren designer Matt Morris confirms: “We had to redesign the clutch and the gearbox.”

The cooling and radiator requirements are also completely different, with Morris admitting that McLaren will simply rely on Renault’s recommendations for the first year.

“Only with more experience does it make sense to develop something of our own,” he said.
http://www.f1undercover.com/mclaren-ada ... lt-engine/
A change of this magnitude was expected, I expect to see Mclaren being truly competitive in the 2nd half of 2018, and maybe in fight for a podium or win towards the end.
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HPD
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Tetsuo Tsugawa
When one talks with Tetsuo Tsugawa, the overall perception of Formula 1 changes completely. Very few will sound his name outside of Formula 1, but it is someone unmistakable. First, because at almost 70 years old he has a ponytail that gives him a certain aspect of an old rocker. And second, because because it uncovers like few the two hemispheres of F1: the rational and the emotive. Tell someone who stood in London without money (and without English) and ended up working in the elite of world mechanics. Before working at Benetton (now Renault), he went through several teams. In one of them, it almost reaches hands with Ayrton Senna ...

"I worked for a year with Senna, in 1984 -their debut year- with the Toleman team, it was very good, but with an excessive ego, I wanted to do everything for him." One day, around two or three in the morning, he appeared and he told us: 'come, change this, do this, do the other thing ...' But we could not! We were mechanics! Impossible without asking the engineers for permission ... He wanted us to change the set-up of the car ... And We fought each other, we faced each other, and he started screaming at me saying: '' ---, we have to win! " It happened in Brazil in 1984. His first race in F1 ...

Have McLaren and Alonso been wrong?
So, the Renault engine will not give you better results than the 2018 Honda? Tsugawa answers 'yes' based on his understanding of Honda's situation, both by direct contact with them and by engine technique. And it is true that there is still a crisis to solve, but if Honda still has several "headaches", the hangover may begin to pass in 2018. There is the question: what if Alonso (and McLaren) have cut the tree when Was it about to pay off?

"Up until now, a big problem with Honda has been the MGU-H - thermal engine - that's their big headache, it does not have enough power, and if they force it 100%, it breaks down. I had to stop the whole race, but if they did everything right, I would have more or less the same power as Renault, because their combustion engine is good ... " Perhaps it is true, and Tetsuo points to a key factor to understand 2017 and what will come further. "2015 and 2016 have been two years in the trash, and they have left very expensive, this year's engine is almost 100% new." But it's good? "The base itself is promising, they are already close to the Top 10. And that is as if they were just starting." In this logic frames a 2018 even between Renault and Honda. And maybe the French are those who have already marked their glass ceiling with these engines. The Honda thing is yet to be seen. Hence, Alonso may not win with all this divorce ...

"Renault had been developing the same combustion engine for several years, and when they added the hybrid part in 2014, they did not fit at all," recalls Tetsuo. "To be really their 'first year' in F1, what we see in this second half of Honda's season is not being equally bad, they need to adjust the electronics, and even if Red Bull is there, how many problems has Renault had? this year?". The last test of Mexico illustrates the scheme well: victory of Verstappen with Renault engine ... but three breakdowns of the same engine in demanding conditions for power. What happens with McLaren in 2018 is still uncertain.

The same goes for Honda, but with certain nuances. Starting with how he has gone from chaos to a structure that is designed to be competitive in the short term. "In 2015 and 2016, Honda did not have a clear concept of the engine," says Tetsuo. "It was a lack of absolute understanding about F1, they were told to work with McLaren and them, 'well, for that reason.'" Then they took people from the factory who did not work in F1, but in business and mechanics. They said: You go to F1 now, okay? And they all nodded, because as they had the technology, they thought that with that they were going to throw away. " In the third year, they have returned to the starting square, but maybe this time to move forward.

"They did it on a blank page and they failed in everything," says Tetsuo. "And it's true that Honda has a lot of technology and resources, but they did not know how to apply it to F1, now they have it organized, there is a way." The question, for now, is to wait for it to work. "Their people are quite young and I know they are motivated, there is a strategy, and next year it will be better, and it is a pity that there are only two years left with this type of engine, because although they will not reach Mercedes and Ferrari, the story will be different. " Because if Honda solves those electrical problems, perhaps McLaren will remember for years of his decision.

"Honda is not good, but McLaren ..."

But why has Honda never communicated this so clearly? McLaren won by winning the battle of communication, also protected by its good chassis. "In Japan there's always a step back, you never speak forcefully like in Europe, your style is more: 'I can do this and I'll get it yes or yes.' Our culture is different, we always take a step back on these issues." For culture, Honda assumed a low profile, mainly for the bad ... but sometimes for the good too. And yes, this also existed.

"How many times have you heard Honda say something against McLaren and Alonso? Not one, not one!" Tetsuo asks, raising his tone. In light of the engine crisis, understandable. But not everything was there. "McLaren has had a lot of problems in the gearbox, and that's also the engine, or what's wrong, it's Honda's fault, and some bad pit stops at McLaren, or when there was a water leak, they always accused Honda unknowingly knew that it was theirs, when there was an electrical problem, they also blamed Honda, but then it turned out that their connector had been turned off ... What, also a Honda problem, right?

"We knew all this but we never said it, and neither did Honda," Tetsuo confesses, "and although they are not so far from Renault being their 'first year', they will not say anything either." Alonso always says that the chassis is terrific and the very bad engine, but look at Spa and Monza, two circuits with straight lines, Red Bull has a very flat rear wing, like a bread, it does not generate any resistance to air, and what about the giant rear wing of McLaren? The car will be all the good you want, yes, because it generates a lot of downforce, but with that spoiler ...
The engine would not be perfect, but are you looking for power with that? He --- us!
I'm not saying that Honda is good, but there's a lot of hidden issue in this matter ... "


A second factor is added to the supposed potential of this engine. "With Toro Rosso, Honda will not have so much pressure, they will not be so questioned, it will be quieter, they will work for them, period." Just when Hasegawa said he was looking to "be friends" with Toro Rosso, and not "partners" like McLaren. And if all goes well, Red Bull in 2019? "If Honda goes well, they will get their engine, yes, it's natural ..." Thinking about a competitive Honda may not be unreasonable, especially because the 2021 engines will take one piece off: the MGU-H. The one with the "headaches" ... What happens if Tetsuo ends up being right?

https://www.elconfidencial.com/deportes ... 8_1474792/

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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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the EDGE wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 21:04
bigblue wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 19:10
An elementary question, but what does the flashing rear red light mean ? MGU-K harvesting, or MGU-H harvesting, or either ? (I guess MGU-K). Can MGU-K harvesting be of varying intensity, I mean it's not just an 'on or off' scenario (I guess, yes, can vary). Lastly, if anyone has a link to a good explanation of both sorts of mechanism, could you post it here, or PM me ? I think I know roughly what they are, but only roughly ! Thanks.
I always thought it meant they had run out of energy to deploy
It is a warning to drivers behind that the PU has run out of power to deploy the mgu-k.... Well not necessarily run out of power but choosing not deploy under full throttle. So for example, in Mexico, the PU might stop deploying halfway down the 1st straight to save Power for the 2nd straight, 2 corners small corners later.

Joseki
Joseki
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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HPD wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 14:26
Tetsuo Tsugawa
When one talks with Tetsuo Tsugawa, the overall perception of Formula 1 changes completely. Very few will sound his name outside of Formula 1, but it is someone unmistakable. First, because at almost 70 years old he has a ponytail that gives him a certain aspect of an old rocker. And second, because because it uncovers like few the two hemispheres of F1: the rational and the emotive. Tell someone who stood in London without money (and without English) and ended up working in the elite of world mechanics. Before working at Benetton (now Renault), he went through several teams. In one of them, it almost reaches hands with Ayrton Senna ...

"I worked for a year with Senna, in 1984 -their debut year- with the Toleman team, it was very good, but with an excessive ego, I wanted to do everything for him." One day, around two or three in the morning, he appeared and he told us: 'come, change this, do this, do the other thing ...' But we could not! We were mechanics! Impossible without asking the engineers for permission ... He wanted us to change the set-up of the car ... And We fought each other, we faced each other, and he started screaming at me saying: '' ---, we have to win! " It happened in Brazil in 1984. His first race in F1 ...

Have McLaren and Alonso been wrong?
So, the Renault engine will not give you better results than the 2018 Honda? Tsugawa answers 'yes' based on his understanding of Honda's situation, both by direct contact with them and by engine technique. And it is true that there is still a crisis to solve, but if Honda still has several "headaches", the hangover may begin to pass in 2018. There is the question: what if Alonso (and McLaren) have cut the tree when Was it about to pay off?

"Up until now, a big problem with Honda has been the MGU-H - thermal engine - that's their big headache, it does not have enough power, and if they force it 100%, it breaks down. I had to stop the whole race, but if they did everything right, I would have more or less the same power as Renault, because their combustion engine is good ... " Perhaps it is true, and Tetsuo points to a key factor to understand 2017 and what will come further. "2015 and 2016 have been two years in the trash, and they have left very expensive, this year's engine is almost 100% new." But it's good? "The base itself is promising, they are already close to the Top 10. And that is as if they were just starting." In this logic frames a 2018 even between Renault and Honda. And maybe the French are those who have already marked their glass ceiling with these engines. The Honda thing is yet to be seen. Hence, Alonso may not win with all this divorce ...

"Renault had been developing the same combustion engine for several years, and when they added the hybrid part in 2014, they did not fit at all," recalls Tetsuo. "To be really their 'first year' in F1, what we see in this second half of Honda's season is not being equally bad, they need to adjust the electronics, and even if Red Bull is there, how many problems has Renault had? this year?". The last test of Mexico illustrates the scheme well: victory of Verstappen with Renault engine ... but three breakdowns of the same engine in demanding conditions for power. What happens with McLaren in 2018 is still uncertain.

The same goes for Honda, but with certain nuances. Starting with how he has gone from chaos to a structure that is designed to be competitive in the short term. "In 2015 and 2016, Honda did not have a clear concept of the engine," says Tetsuo. "It was a lack of absolute understanding about F1, they were told to work with McLaren and them, 'well, for that reason.'" Then they took people from the factory who did not work in F1, but in business and mechanics. They said: You go to F1 now, okay? And they all nodded, because as they had the technology, they thought that with that they were going to throw away. " In the third year, they have returned to the starting square, but maybe this time to move forward.

"They did it on a blank page and they failed in everything," says Tetsuo. "And it's true that Honda has a lot of technology and resources, but they did not know how to apply it to F1, now they have it organized, there is a way." The question, for now, is to wait for it to work. "Their people are quite young and I know they are motivated, there is a strategy, and next year it will be better, and it is a pity that there are only two years left with this type of engine, because although they will not reach Mercedes and Ferrari, the story will be different. " Because if Honda solves those electrical problems, perhaps McLaren will remember for years of his decision.

"Honda is not good, but McLaren ..."

But why has Honda never communicated this so clearly? McLaren won by winning the battle of communication, also protected by its good chassis. "In Japan there's always a step back, you never speak forcefully like in Europe, your style is more: 'I can do this and I'll get it yes or yes.' Our culture is different, we always take a step back on these issues." For culture, Honda assumed a low profile, mainly for the bad ... but sometimes for the good too. And yes, this also existed.

"How many times have you heard Honda say something against McLaren and Alonso? Not one, not one!" Tetsuo asks, raising his tone. In light of the engine crisis, understandable. But not everything was there. "McLaren has had a lot of problems in the gearbox, and that's also the engine, or what's wrong, it's Honda's fault, and some bad pit stops at McLaren, or when there was a water leak, they always accused Honda unknowingly knew that it was theirs, when there was an electrical problem, they also blamed Honda, but then it turned out that their connector had been turned off ... What, also a Honda problem, right?

"We knew all this but we never said it, and neither did Honda," Tetsuo confesses, "and although they are not so far from Renault being their 'first year', they will not say anything either." Alonso always says that the chassis is terrific and the very bad engine, but look at Spa and Monza, two circuits with straight lines, Red Bull has a very flat rear wing, like a bread, it does not generate any resistance to air, and what about the giant rear wing of McLaren? The car will be all the good you want, yes, because it generates a lot of downforce, but with that spoiler ...
The engine would not be perfect, but are you looking for power with that? He --- us!
I'm not saying that Honda is good, but there's a lot of hidden issue in this matter ... "


A second factor is added to the supposed potential of this engine. "With Toro Rosso, Honda will not have so much pressure, they will not be so questioned, it will be quieter, they will work for them, period." Just when Hasegawa said he was looking to "be friends" with Toro Rosso, and not "partners" like McLaren. And if all goes well, Red Bull in 2019? "If Honda goes well, they will get their engine, yes, it's natural ..." Thinking about a competitive Honda may not be unreasonable, especially because the 2021 engines will take one piece off: the MGU-H. The one with the "headaches" ... What happens if Tetsuo ends up being right?

https://www.elconfidencial.com/deportes ... 8_1474792/
This article says the opposite of the AMuS article about the chassis. This guy wrote that they are behind in the high speed corners and top in the slow speed corners, AMuS wrote that McLaren is top in the high speed corners and behind in the low speed corners.

And all the stuff about Alonso and McLaren is cheap talk, the only thing that matters is what the track will decide next year.

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HPD
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Joseki wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 15:05
This article says the opposite of the AMuS article about the chassis. This guy wrote that they are behind in the high speed corners and top in the slow speed corners, AMuS wrote that McLaren is top in the high speed corners and behind in the low speed corners.
And all the stuff about Alonso and McLaren is cheap talk, the only thing that matters is what the track will decide next year.
It's an interview with Tetsuo Tsugawa, not an article.
And nowhere does it say they are behind in the high-speed corners and up in the slow corners. I do not know what you read.
But just thank you for your response, it was "very productive" for the Technical Forum :)

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etusch
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I am not that much technical as some members of this forum. They're the guys make this forum different from others. I generally trying to run my logic for reaching some ideas. Of course it could be reach wrong results because of lesser knowledge. But when I look Tetsuo Tsugawa's statement about Honda PU, it seems it proves my idea about the PU. I said their best problem is electric generation and they won't introduce tji because of this that it will reduce generation significantly which is already lesser than others. I remember Alo's attack to hulkenberg at spa's straight. When electric storage goes low then they're far behind. We all honda fans also except that Honda is behind others as ice.
Now McLaren has to make it again, maybe they lost 3 year's improvement when adapting new PU. ( Maybe not )
Teams statements say us Renault PU is bigger.
I am not sure if Honda can solve mgu-h problems completely. But I am expecting better improvement than they did 2016.

Joseki
Joseki
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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HPD wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 15:38
Joseki wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 15:05
This article says the opposite of the AMuS article about the chassis. This guy wrote that they are behind in the high speed corners and top in the slow speed corners, AMuS wrote that McLaren is top in the high speed corners and behind in the low speed corners.
And all the stuff about Alonso and McLaren is cheap talk, the only thing that matters is what the track will decide next year.
It's an interview with Tetsuo Tsugawa, not an article.
And nowhere does it say they are behind in the high-speed corners and up in the slow corners. I do not know what you read.
But just thank you for your response, it was "very productive" for the Technical Forum :)
LoL sorry I was sure it was this article of Yoneya Mineoki being reposted by another site: https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_6.php

I visit too many sites at the same time. :lol:

Jolle
Jolle
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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With the rumour going on that Alonso is going to drive the 24 of les mans for Toyota in 2018 (according to skysports even with seat fitting and all), how much of him pushing Honda out of the door was part of that?

With a Honda contract he couldn't drive for Toyota and in Indy, engine is less important..... so, now he has his big pay check, the next best thing when all the winning seats are taken, a chance to drive for whoever he wants outside F1... too much of a perfect fit to be coincidental :D

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Mattchu
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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This article gives a very good insight into the way in which Honda [and i suppose the Japanese people] conduct their dealings. I for one have a massive amount of repect and admiration for the way they go about things.
Sure they`ve been pretty awful in the PU department this last few years but there has been many a time when the engine wasn`t the cause of a retirement, yet Honda still got blamed.
They didn`t come out whining and laying the blame [quite rightly] at someone else`s door. They just took the flack and got on with it.
It looks to me [fingers crossed] that they now have a team in place which can actually move forward, before it all seemed a bit muddled and Honda had so many problems they didn`t know which to tackle first so ended trying a bit of everything with little success! Now they seem to be on top of the issues and pretty much know which parts they have to strenghthen before moving on to something else. As alluded to above, electrical storage/generation and efficiancy has been their biggest loss area, somewhere where Mercedes and Ferrari both excel. I still think we underestimate how huge a part this plays in the performance of these PU`s and to be fair Renault aren`t much stronger considering the amount of retirements they`ve had this last few years [on all cars].
Lets hope next year all 4 PU`s are pretty close when in race trim, unfortunately for the rest i still think Merc have the edge with the software and efficiency of their electrical system...

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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Jolle wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 17:40
With the rumour going on that Alonso is going to drive the 24 of les mans for Toyota in 2018 (according to skysports even with seat fitting and all), how much of him pushing Honda out of the door was part of that?

With a Honda contract he couldn't drive for Toyota and in Indy, engine is less important..... so, now he has his big pay check, the next best thing when all the winning seats are taken, a chance to drive for whoever he wants outside F1... too much of a perfect fit to be coincidental :D
Poeple keep making stuff up.
  • Alonso said he had no problems to continue working with Honda if McLaren wanted to.
  • Hasegawa said he had no problems with Alonso's criticism. He Understood, Alonso just wants to win. So if they were winning there wouldn't be criticism.

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Wazari
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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That's interesting, ole Tetsuo-san being interviewed instead of doing the interviewing. This man has dedicated his whole life to F1 and if anyone knows F1, it's him. Although he says he's a mechanic, he's a mechanical engineer (we studied at the same school) and very sharp. He just loved turning wrenches and didn't want to play the Japanese corporate game that the rest of us mostly did. All he wanted to do was work for a F1 team and moved to the UK after college and never left. I believe his first F1 stint was with Surtees before going to Toleman (Benneton) and then turned journalist. He is about as un-Japanese as a Japanese person can be. I admire him for his passion, knowledge and dedication to the F1 world. There is probably not a journalist out there that knows the ins and outs of F1 more than he does. He pretty much nailed the McLaren-Honda relationship on the head. I am surprised as blunt as he is, didn't mention who in fact actually is responsible for the manufacture of the current MGU-H unit and where it's being built.

As far as what Hasegawa-san says and what he really thinks may be two different things. Remember Japan is country where in the business world, most times "Yes" means "No" and vice versa.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Wazari wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 01:25
That's interesting, ole Tetsuo-san being interviewed instead of doing the interviewing. This man has dedicated his whole life to F1 and if anyone knows F1, it's him. Although he says he's a mechanic, he's a mechanical engineer (we studied at the same school) and very sharp. He just loved turning wrenches and didn't want to play the Japanese corporate game that the rest of us mostly did. All he wanted to do was work for a F1 team and moved to the UK after college and never left. I believe his first F1 stint was with Surtees before going to Toleman (Benneton) and then turned journalist. He is about as un-Japanese as a Japanese person can be. I admire him for his passion, knowledge and dedication to the F1 world. There is probably not a journalist out there that knows the ins and outs of F1 more than he does. He pretty much nailed the McLaren-Honda relationship on the head. I am surprised as blunt as he is, didn't mention who in fact actually is responsible for the manufacture of the current MGU-H unit and where it's being built.

As far as what Hasegawa-san says and what he really thinks may be two different things. Remember Japan is country where in the business world, most times "Yes" means "No" and vice versa.
Very interesting. Some people, myself included, suspect that the Mclaren Honda disaster was not only Honda's doing. I always find it irritating how the people of Mclaren continually praise their chassis, something that started last year and became more prevalent this year, culminating with Alonso declaring it was the best car at the Mexican Grand prix. Thankfully they won't have to tell us how good their chassis is next year, when Redbull will provide a great comparison.

Joseki
Joseki
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Wazari wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 01:25
That's interesting, ole Tetsuo-san being interviewed instead of doing the interviewing. This man has dedicated his whole life to F1 and if anyone knows F1, it's him. Although he says he's a mechanic, he's a mechanical engineer (we studied at the same school) and very sharp. He just loved turning wrenches and didn't want to play the Japanese corporate game that the rest of us mostly did. All he wanted to do was work for a F1 team and moved to the UK after college and never left. I believe his first F1 stint was with Surtees before going to Toleman (Benneton) and then turned journalist. He is about as un-Japanese as a Japanese person can be. I admire him for his passion, knowledge and dedication to the F1 world. There is probably not a journalist out there that knows the ins and outs of F1 more than he does. He pretty much nailed the McLaren-Honda relationship on the head. I am surprised as blunt as he is, didn't mention who in fact actually is responsible for the manufacture of the current MGU-H unit and where it's being built.

As far as what Hasegawa-san says and what he really thinks may be two different things. Remember Japan is country where in the business world, most times "Yes" means "No" and vice versa.
Wazari could you please answer my question in the previous page about a possible Alonso Toyota test this year? I'm very curious about the Honda-Toyota rivalry and how it's seen in Japan.

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bigblue
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Wazari wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 01:25
I am surprised as blunt as he is, didn't mention who in fact actually is responsible for the manufacture of the current MGU-H unit and where it's being built.
That's the most intriguing bit, never mind Alonso and Toyota ! Hmm, surely not Woking ?