2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Alonso Fan]

OK, obviously you know all of these and I think many people around the globe will appreciate to share your knowledge. Or we can open here a casino betting what are the power figures, etc.? Many people here speak as they are F1 team members and they know exactly how much underrated is the Honda engine, and how much powerful is the Mercedes engine. They just refuse the idea that maybe the reality is not so simple and most of this reality is constructed in their minds not because they have facts but because they tend to accept what they wish to accept from what other people want they to accept.

Alot like yourself and Mr techman here

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

[j.yank]

Alot like yourself and Mr techman here

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

I have never had like you aspirations that I have facts - only conclusions based on relative comparisons between different teams. I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull, neither I know how much worst/best is Honda engine, but the simple facts that they finished ahead of one works and three customer teams (one Mercedes, one Ferrari, one Renault), that they are loosing heavily against Red Bull in all sectors, that the same Red Bull outperformed their works team, speaks that Honda engine is not so bad, neither McLaren chassis is the best. Note that I am not saying that this is the worst chassis. Certainly it is much better than many teams on the grid, but certainly is not race winner, not to speak title contender. So, this is your turn now, go ahead with your exact power figures.

[Alonso Fan]

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

I have never had like you aspirations that I have facts - only conclusions based on relative comparisons between different teams.I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull , neither I know how much worst/best is Honda engine, but the simple facts that they finished ahead of one works and three customer teams (one Mercedes, one Ferrari, one Renault), that they are loosing heavily against Red Bull in all sectors, that the same Red Bull outperformed their works team, speaks that Honda engine is not so bad, neither McLaren chassis is the best. Note that I am not saying that this is the worst chassis. Certainly it is much better than many teams on the grid, but certainly is not race winner, not to speak title contender. So, this is your turn now, go ahead with your exact power figures.

So you go from all out 'mclaren draggy chassis super slow compared to RB's super efficient chassis' to 'I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull'?

On the other hand I can tell you that when you look at that flashing red rear light, the speed difference on the straights, how easily they get overtaken, how it is impossible for them to overtake another car who is overall slower, the fact that in Mexico a sauber was as quick in a straight line than the Mclaren with DRS, same with massa in Brazil, the lap times and sector times from circuits like Japan, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, etc, you cannot attribute it all or most of it to more drag.

[diffuser]

I think people here feel very offended when I publish Japanese news (with official quotes, not rumors).

And I think many users here try to say. That Mclaren can not run with low downforce, because the vehicle loses its balance and the pilot complains. (Matt Morris).

Unlike Red Bull, which can work with low downforce to have more top speed.
(Red bull 338km/h vs Renaul 333km/h vs MclarenHonda 325 km/h)

Matt Morris tries to explain that this has a reason or a justification. It will be true? we will not know. But we are left with the doubt.

Many people thought that Mclaren was running with high downforce to make Honda look bad.
But I really believe that Mclaren can not look bad in front of the public, or show a weakness of his chassis.
This could simply be a commercial tactic to obtain a sponsor.

I don't think McLaren are running High DF. They are running variable DF.

[j.yank]

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

I have never had like you aspirations that I have facts - only conclusions based on relative comparisons between different teams.I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull , neither I know how much worst/best is Honda engine, but the simple facts that they finished ahead of one works and three customer teams (one Mercedes, one Ferrari, one Renault), that they are loosing heavily against Red Bull in all sectors, that the same Red Bull outperformed their works team, speaks that Honda engine is not so bad, neither McLaren chassis is the best. Note that I am not saying that this is the worst chassis. Certainly it is much better than many teams on the grid, but certainly is not race winner, not to speak title contender. So, this is your turn now, go ahead with your exact power figures.

So you go from all out 'mclaren draggy chassis super slow compared to RB's super efficient chassis' to 'I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull'?

On the other hand I can tell you that when you look at that flashing red rear light, the speed difference on the straights, how easily they get overtaken, how it is impossible for them to overtake another car who is overall slower, the fact that in Mexico a sauber was as quick in a straight line than the Mclaren with DRS, same with massa in Brazil, the lap times and sector times from circuits like Japan, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, etc, you cannot attribute it all or most of it to more drag.

For sure "super slow" and "super efficient" are just words (your words btw) that mean anybody doesn't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull. I have not changed anything in my position. This you who have claimed to know exact facts, not me.

I wouldn't attribute all of these but maybe most of them to the high drag. This my opinion, I don't have first hand information like you. We will see next season. All the best.

[Alonso Fan]

I have never had like you aspirations that I have facts - only conclusions based on relative comparisons between different teams.I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull , neither I know how much worst/best is Honda engine, but the simple facts that they finished ahead of one works and three customer teams (one Mercedes, one Ferrari, one Renault), that they are loosing heavily against Red Bull in all sectors, that the same Red Bull outperformed their works team, speaks that Honda engine is not so bad, neither McLaren chassis is the best. Note that I am not saying that this is the worst chassis. Certainly it is much better than many teams on the grid, but certainly is not race winner, not to speak title contender. So, this is your turn now, go ahead with your exact power figures.

So you go from all out 'mclaren draggy chassis super slow compared to RB's super efficient chassis' to 'I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull'?

On the other hand I can tell you that when you look at that flashing red rear light, the speed difference on the straights, how easily they get overtaken, how it is impossible for them to overtake another car who is overall slower, the fact that in Mexico a sauber was as quick in a straight line than the Mclaren with DRS, same with massa in Brazil, the lap times and sector times from circuits like Japan, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, etc, you cannot attribute it all or most of it to more drag.

For sure "super slow" and "super efficient" are just words (your words btw) that mean anybody doesn't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull. I have not changed anything in my position. This you who have claimed to know exact facts, not me.

I wouldn't attribute all of these but maybe most of them to the high drag. This my opinion, I don't have first hand information like you. We will see next season. All the best.

If course, I meant super slow in a straight line like you've said or at least alluded to in past posts. Don't just put it back on me. You've used words to that effect and claimed things you cannot prove.

And you've done it again.

Answer me this. Mclaren has the same drag with DRS open than a sauber or williams with it closed?

[Wazari]

Alot like yourself and Mr techman here

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

MCL32 Monza Cd: .96, .82 with DRS. Not verified but reliable source.

[j.yank]

So you go from all out 'mclaren draggy chassis super slow compared to RB's super efficient chassis' to 'I don't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull'?

On the other hand I can tell you that when you look at that flashing red rear light, the speed difference on the straights, how easily they get overtaken, how it is impossible for them to overtake another car who is overall slower, the fact that in Mexico a sauber was as quick in a straight line than the Mclaren with DRS, same with massa in Brazil, the lap times and sector times from circuits like Japan, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, etc, you cannot attribute it all or most of it to more drag.

For sure "super slow" and "super efficient" are just words (your words btw) that mean anybody doesn't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull. I have not changed anything in my position. This you who have claimed to know exact facts, not me.

I wouldn't attribute all of these but maybe most of them to the high drag. This my opinion, I don't have first hand information like you. We will see next season. All the best.

If course, I meant super slow in a straight line like you've said or at least alluded to in past posts. Don't just put it back on me. You've used words to that effect and claimed things you cannot prove.

And you've done it again.

Answer me this. Mclaren has the same drag with DRS open than a sauber or williams with it closed?

I have never used words like "super slow" and I am not responsible for your interpretations of my words. I claim that you cannot be 0.7 sec slower than a competitor car with Renault PU in particular sector, and in the same time to be 0.4 sec faster than a competitor car with Mercedes PU in the same sector, and in the same time to claim that your PU is the worst PU on the grid (assuming that Mercedes PU is superior to Renault), and your chassis is the best.

I am not a member of F1 team staff, so, the last question is outside of my competence, but I hope that you finally will tell us what are the real numbers.

[Alonso Fan]

For sure "super slow" and "super efficient" are just words (your words btw) that mean anybody doesn't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull. I have not changed anything in my position. This you who have claimed to know exact facts, not me.

I wouldn't attribute all of these but maybe most of them to the high drag. This my opinion, I don't have first hand information like you. We will see next season. All the best.

If course, I meant super slow in a straight line like you've said or at least alluded to in past posts. Don't just put it back on me. You've used words to that effect and claimed things you cannot prove.

And you've done it again.

Answer me this. Mclaren has the same drag with DRS open than a sauber or williams with it closed?

I have never used words like "super slow" and I am not responsible for your interpretations of my words. I claim that you cannot be 0.7 sec slower than a competitor car with Renault PU in particular sector, and in the same time to be 0.4 sec faster than a competitor car with Mercedes PU in the same sector, and in the same time to claim that your PU is the worst PU on the grid (assuming that Mercedes PU is superior to Renault), and your chassis is the best.

I am not a member of F1 team staff, so, the last question is outside of my competence, but I hope that you finally will tell us what are the real numbers.

It is entirely possible. It depends which sector you choose to favour your argument. I could do the same to prove my argument.

Anyway you didn't answer my question

[j.yank]

If course, I meant super slow in a straight line like you've said or at least alluded to in past posts. Don't just put it back on me. You've used words to that effect and claimed things you cannot prove.

And you've done it again.

Answer me this. Mclaren has the same drag with DRS open than a sauber or williams with it closed?

I have never used words like "super slow" and I am not responsible for your interpretations of my words. I claim that you cannot be 0.7 sec slower than a competitor car with Renault PU in particular sector, and in the same time to be 0.4 sec faster than a competitor car with Mercedes PU in the same sector, and in the same time to claim that your PU is the worst PU on the grid (assuming that Mercedes PU is superior to Renault), and your chassis is the best.

I am not a member of F1 team staff, so, the last question is outside of my competence, but I hope that you finally will tell us what are the real numbers.

It is entirely possible. It depends which sector you choose to favour your argument. I could do the same to prove my argument.

Anyway you didn't answer my question

Sector 2, GP Brazil , look at 30 lap onward. I am not a team insider capable to answer your question. You are the one who pretend exactly to know how much Honda PU is underrated.

[stevesingo]

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

MCL32 Monza Cd: .96, .82 with DRS. Not verified but reliable source.

At which circuit?

Edited to add DOH!

[j.yank]

I am waiting to be enlighten from you regarding the power figures of all PU. Please, give us your facts.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the drag coefficients of all cars.
Please, give us your facts.

MCL32 Monza Cd: .96, .82 with DRS. Not verified but reliable source.

... Well, what I have heard on Monza the teams run something like 0.7 drag, 0.96 is more like Barcelona or something like this.

[Alonso Fan]

I have never used words like "super slow" and I am not responsible for your interpretations of my words. I claim that you cannot be 0.7 sec slower than a competitor car with Renault PU in particular sector, and in the same time to be 0.4 sec faster than a competitor car with Mercedes PU in the same sector, and in the same time to claim that your PU is the worst PU on the grid (assuming that Mercedes PU is superior to Renault), and your chassis is the best.

I am not a member of F1 team staff, so, the last question is outside of my competence, but I hope that you finally will tell us what are the real numbers.

It is entirely possible. It depends which sector you choose to favour your argument. I could do the same to prove my argument.

Anyway you didn't answer my question

Sector 2, GP Brazil , look at 30 lap onward. I am not a team insider capable to answer your question. You are the one who pretend exactly to know how much Honda PU is underrated.

You quote the race pace which adds factors such as fuel saving, tyre preservation, running detuned to make the engine last longer, difference in compound, different strategies etc. Why don't you compare qualifying pace where none of these variables exist and where we know everyone is going as fast as they can?

And you're using just one specific track with a high full throttle percentage to suit your argument. How about comparing over various tracks with differing characteristics?

[j.yank]

It is entirely possible. It depends which sector you choose to favour your argument. I could do the same to prove my argument.

Anyway you didn't answer my question

Sector 2, GP Brazil , look at 30 lap onward. I am not a team insider capable to answer your question. You are the one who pretend exactly to know how much Honda PU is underrated.

You quote the race pace which adds factors such as fuel saving, tyre preservation, running detuned to make the engine last longer, difference in compound, different strategies etc. Why don't you compare qualifying pace where none of these variables exist and where we know everyone is going as fast as they can?

And you're using just one specific track with a high full throttle percentage to suit your argument. How about comparing over various tracks with differing characteristics?

Qualification GP Brazil:

VER: S1 17.609 S2 34.963 S3 16.477
PER: S1 17.21 S2 35.534 S3 16.483
ALO: S1 17.746 S2 35.197 S3 16.674

It seems that with harder compounds RedBull outperforms McLaren even more but the difference with Mercedes customer teams stays the same.

Brazil is the last GP, historical comparisons are meaningless given many outside of the track factors.

[stevesingo]

For sure "super slow" and "super efficient" are just words (your words btw) that mean anybody doesn't know how much exactly McLaren chassis is bad comparing to Red Bull. I have not changed anything in my position. This you who have claimed to know exact facts, not me.

I wouldn't attribute all of these but maybe most of them to the high drag. This my opinion, I don't have first hand information like you. We will see next season. All the best.

If course, I meant super slow in a straight line like you've said or at least alluded to in past posts. Don't just put it back on me. You've used words to that effect and claimed things you cannot prove.

And you've done it again.

Answer me this. Mclaren has the same drag with DRS open than a sauber or williams with it closed?

I have never used words like "super slow" and I am not responsible for your interpretations of my words. I claim that you cannot be 0.7 sec slower than a competitor car with Renault PU in particular sector, and in the same time to be 0.4 sec faster than a competitor car with Mercedes PU in the same sector, and in the same time to claim that your PU is the worst PU on the grid (assuming that Mercedes PU is superior to Renault), and your chassis is the best.

I am not a member of F1 team staff, so, the last question is outside of my competence, but I hope that you finally will tell us what are the real numbers.

If you have three cars, car A has a very good engine and a poor chassis, car B has a poor engine and a good chassis, Car C has a good engine and good chassis. How might they perform on a circuit that has two sectors which are more power dependant that the other sector.

It doesn't take a phd to work out how the comparative performances might pan out.

Then when the car B comes up behind car A in a sector where it is not possible to overtake, the performance of car B will be pegged by the dirty air in front, and being unable to pass on the straights in the power dependant sectors, will be stuck behind car A.

There is a great example of just this happening in F1.