Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Singabule]

I wonder why the merc customer team not change the engine mapping for race if the figure is correct, let say FI. They love to run as much downforce as possible, so why they want to save their fuel? How much it cost to get one unit merc engine compared to Ferrari and renault? Honda is free so they push it like hell. If the price went down, ill reckon more fuel to be used as well from merc side. Or they are not allowed to overclock their engine as well. This fuel consumption confirm how much merc outperform all other manufacturer easily. Honda and Ferrari May use cylinder cutting technique to recharge their battery, and cost their mguh reliability. Renault cant afford this as if the mgu failed, RBR would love to bash them. Honda is doing honda way, they dont care if it is failed, if not failed, you are not pushing it enough

[f1316]

I don’t know how the majority on here (other than those with inside knowledge) can have much basis for what *looks right*.

We have reasonable data (Q3 performance, straight line speeds) to assume that the Ferrari is relatively close to the Mercedes in terms of peak power but little to go on that tells us anything about efficiency and, perhaps more importantly, strategy.

Because this is also about tactics for how you choose to go racing and how you want to achieve longevity from your PU. If Mercedes take the view that our optimal strategy is to have high enough peak power to achieve pole and then achieve the 4 PU limit via lower mode usage in races (benefiting also from lower weight) then this makes a lot of sense and explains to some extent relative competitiveness on Sat/Sun.

Likewise, if Ferrari, in the position of challenger, feel the best way to put pressure on their previously dominant opponent is to create a powerful unit that can run at higher modes for longer - with a stretch objective of meeting the 4 PU rule - this is also logical and goes some way to explaining failures late in the year.

So personally I see nothing in these figures that seems suspicious - acknowledging that since these are averages, if you looked at Brazil only it may have closed up somewhat - rather I think it provides some rationale to things like Haas claiming the Ferrari PU is more powerful despite evidence to contrary on power-dependant circuits (the Mercedes has more places to go when it needs to - e.g. they stick more fuel in at Monza, knowing they’ll have to compensate by running th engine lower elsewhere, like Malaysia).

You start by saying that you don't know how the majority without inside knowledge can have a basis for what looks right, then proceed to detail the opposite. I think there is enough information out there from qualification sessions and the races to form a good basis.

If Mercedes is running less race fuel they will suffer with less average power and this should be visible in the top speed traces. While the teams vary strategy and deployment, I doubt the differences (particularly between Ferrari and Mercedes) would be as high as 10% average.

Yes, you make a fair point - that did occur to me somewhat when I was writing it.

That said, my point was that I can’t see the numbers and prove or disprove them either way; we can say that, if true they mean this and speak to the logic of that, but we have no empirical evidence to call into question Wazari’s numbers.

[Snorked]

Toro Rosso is surprised at the compactness of the Honda PU


An engineer with Toro Rosso who confirmed the specification of Honda says "I was surprised at compactness". Honda's general manager Yusuke Hasegawa also talks as follows.

"We (Honda and Toro Rosso) are not having such a hard time because the Honda's PU is more compact (than Renault) because the degree of freedom of development on the vehicle body is expanding. On the contrary, I heard that McLaren side is struggling.But Honda and Reni Taffin of Renault also team He says "I can not tamper with the skeleton of the engine any more."

After the final race in Abu Dhabi GP, a tire test aimed at the evaluation of the 2018 type Pirelli tire will be conducted on a two-day schedule. Honda, who was supposed to participate from 2015, joined McLaren from the Abu Dhabi test three years ago and participated in the test. Is it possible for Honda to work with Toro Rosso in this test this time?

"As there is a contract with McLaren until the end of November, we will not be able to test with other teams until then."

So, when will Honda's PU coalesce with Toro Rosso?
"I think that the test of our key gearbox will be done in one of the dynamos of HRD Sakura or HRD MK in about the year.The engine and gear box are the specification of this year.The driving which was the subject this year It is to confirm the torsional vibration of the system.The matching of the gearbox is very important for us. "

Confirmation of this torsional vibration is an important test for Honda who was plagued by oscillation (resonance) at the beginning of the season. There are various vibrations in the drive system such as engines, gear boxes, tires and the like. Therefore, resonance always occurs. How does the problem miss that resonance? Normally you put the input shaft between the engine and the gearbox to miss the resonance.

Honda of this season also put an input shaft between McLaren's gearbox and the engine of Honda early in the season had a bad habit of making the combustion unstable in a certain revolution area, so unexpected at that moment Vibration occurred, causing resonance. Based on such reflections, Honda is focusing on this resonance countermeasure for the next season.

Although the relationship between Honda and Toro Rosso is going smoothly, there is one thing that has yet to be decided for the next season. It is a supplier of fuel and oil.

From this year Honda is using BP castrol, but now Toro Rosso is using Exxon Mobil. Because the sponsorship fee is involved in the decision, the political elements of the team side account for a large proportion. However, fuel is an important item related to the combustion of the engine. It has not been decided yet.

"When we changed to BP Castrol this year, BP Castrol side developed and supplied fuel in accordance with our intention.Fuel is an important thing that is the basis of combustion, So, I'd like you to decide as soon as possible, whichever comes up. "

Where is the supplier of fuel & oil? That is Toro Rosso Honda's biggest point of interest.

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[FW17]

What W is saying I believe is both Merc and Ferrari are close in peak power in Q

But in the race the Merc engine with a better ERS is able to run with less fuel

Eg:
Race
Merc 91KG - Fuel flow 25g/s with 47% eff will have 720 HP + ERS avg of 100 HP/lap
Ferrari with 100KG - Fuel Flow of 27g/s with eff of 46% will have 750 HP + ERS avg 70 HP/lap

Quali
Fuel flow 28g/s with 47% eff will have 810 HP + ERS avg of 160 HP/lap
Ferrari with Fuel Flow of 28g/s with eff of 46% will have 790 HP + ERS avg 160 HP/lap

[Postmoe]

That figure including sauber one? So the Ferrari unit maybe the strongest in outright power, but need to turn down severely at some point of race. While merc turn it down most of races? So the Ferrari and Mercedes rivalry this season is bullshit, merc is sandbagging RBR is the most efficient chasis out there, so the number seems right

Even accounting for Sauber, the Ferrari figure doesn't look right, being barely ahead of Honda.

It doesn't seem right for Ferrari but at the same time it seems very consistent with what has been said by W.

So we can only conclude it is the same person, but nothing else.

[PlatinumZealot]

That figure including sauber one? So the Ferrari unit maybe the strongest in outright power, but need to turn down severely at some point of race. While merc turn it down most of races? So the Ferrari and Mercedes rivalry this season is bullshit, merc is sandbagging RBR is the most efficient chasis out there, so the number seems right

Hmm. Not protecting Wazari, but you are right. The Ferrari and Renault numbers need to be switched. The 2016 Ferrari unit also wasn't that bad was it?

[etusch]

It seems like Honda back early mclaren year's lubricant and fuel supplier

[ispano6]

Autosport reports Toro Rosso Honda will use Exxon Mobil fuel and lubricants.

This is good news as the article mentions Redbull being pleased with the fuel performance improvements.

[wuzak]

Brundle mentioned during the qualifying session that he has seen aome GPS traces that suggest that Renault are 6% down on Mercedes on ICE power and Honda are 11% down....

If we assume 800hp for the Mercedes, that is nearly 50hp down for the Renault and 90hp down for the Honda.

[OO7]

I'd be surprised if the Mercedes ICE is outputting 800bhp, because that would equate to around 54% thermal efficiency with the MGU-H contribution.

[godlameroso]

Brundle mentioned during the qualifying session that he has seen aome GPS traces that suggest that Renault are 6% down on Mercedes on ICE power and Honda are 11% down....

If we assume 800hp for the Mercedes, that is nearly 50hp down for the Renault and 90hp down for the Honda.

Only ICE power?

[etusch]

According to FIA all 3 PU performs in 0.3 sec. No body accepted this but they have knowledge about all teams. Maybe teams also have datas about rivals. We can only directly compare PUs, with their visible performance, if all engines are used in same chassis with same settings. This comparation for giving an idea about performance and true as in order of power.

[diffuser]

According to FIA all 3 PU performs in 0.3 sec. No body accepted this but they have knowledge about all teams. Maybe teams also have datas about rivals. We can only directly compare PUs, with their visible performance, if all engines are used in same chassis with same settings. This comparation for giving an idea about performance and true as in order of power.

Hadn't seen that ....

[stevesingo]

According to FIA all 3 PU performs in 0.3 sec. No body accepted this but they have knowledge about all teams. Maybe teams also have datas about rivals. We can only directly compare PUs, with their visible performance, if all engines are used in same chassis with same settings.

There are 4 PU suppliers (Ferrari, Merc, Renault and Honda) and 5 PUs (inc 2016 Ferrari PU used by Sauber).

The basis of the FiA claim that the PUs were within 0.3sec is a comparison of 2017 Ferrari, Merc and Renault only.

[Mattchu]

The basis of the FiA claim that the PUs were within 0.3sec is a comparison of 2017 Ferrari, Merc and Renault only.

And is also absolute rubbish IMO...0.3 seconds where? Over a quarter mile, a mile, they just plucked this number from somewhere so no one looks to bad!

Anyway the Honda PU certainly seems to be a lot better now, maybe not top end grunt but driveability looks better and it`s certainly more reliable. I reckon a lot of that is through software/mapping, etc.