Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[RonDennis]

Read the article on Autosport as well, no wonder why McLaren left.

"We had many MGU-H issues at the beginning of the season, especially in Bahrain. We had maybe three MGU-H failures on Stoffel's car. But we had nothing for that. We just applied a new MGU-H and failure. We spent four or five MGU-Hs there, because we didn't understand what was happening."

When Honda did finally understand what was going on, it modified the oil tank to stop the oil blowing, and beefed up the MGU-H bearing to make it more resilient. Things got much better after that, but McLaren still used more engine components than any other individual team this year and, when Honda missed its agreed performance target to match the estimated power output of the Mercedes customer engine in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix, the fate of McLaren-Honda was sealed.

[McHonda]

This is a good example, a whole year, and people still criticize Honda for the oil tank, and it really was a problem for Mclaren. Why did Hasegawa remain silent for so long?

Can we get a summary? I looked but couldn't see it.

Of course.

Hasegawa: "Then, at the Barcelona test, we found more issues on the car, such as the oil tank issue. It was a car-related issue. This is not a complete engine issue, but of course it is very important.”
http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/in ... pment.html

I think Mclaren demanded a lot about packing.

That doesn't read to me it was a McLaren fault but rather their oil tank didn't work once it was in the car. It reads like another correlation issue between Sakura testing and track like Hasegawa spoke of previously in the year.

I'm also not convinced McLaren put any increased pressure on Honda for packaging for the first year of a new concept. They've literally just asked Renault for the conservative packaging so it would be odd to me if they show more caution for a race winning engine but demand tight packaging for one that was brand new from a supplier who were struggling badly and had 2 years of issues and failure behind it.

That is one giant leap of faith from McLaren that Honda could deliver. Surely you'd prioritise pre-season testing running for the first season of a major rule change and first year of a new engine concept, it's too important to risk getting bogged down with overheating engines for the 3rd pre-season in a row and risk limited running for me to believe it.

[GhostF1]

Can we get a summary? I looked but couldn't see it.

Of course.

Hasegawa: "Then, at the Barcelona test, we found more issues on the car, such as the oil tank issue. It was a car-related issue. This is not a complete engine issue, but of course it is very important.”
http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/in ... pment.html

I think Mclaren demanded a lot about packing.

That doesn't read to me it was a McLaren fault but rather their oil tank didn't work once it was in the car. It reads like another correlation issue between Sakura testing and track like Hasegawa spoke of previously in the year.

I'm also not convinced McLaren put any increased pressure on Honda for packaging for the first year of a new concept. They've literally just asked Renault for the conservative packaging so it would be odd to me if they show more caution for a race winning engine but demand tight packaging for one that was brand new from a supplier who were struggling badly and had 2 years of issues and failure behind it.

That is one giant leap of faith from McLaren that Honda could deliver. Surely you'd prioritise pre-season testing running for the first season of a major rule change and first year of a new engine concept, it's too important to risk getting bogged down with overheating engines for the 3rd pre-season in a row and risk limited running for me to believe it.

I agree, I read it as their design did not work once on the car. Japanese-English translation can get a little lost here. I refuse to believe the engines main oil tank was up to McLaren to deal with... It's probably safe to assume Honda underestimated the level of grip and the G-Forces experienced with the new regulations and this is where the issues arose from.

One thing I disagree with though, is using McLaren's supposed request for the conservative packaging for the Renault as evidence they were not hard on Honda.. I think it's safe to say McLaren had applied a lot of pressure on the packaging for Honda. I'm not claimng that's the route of all their problems because I don't believe thaty but I do think it's definitely a part of it.
Just because McLaren want to play it safe this time, does not mean they were so careful in the past.

That's like a couple getting divorced because the Husband was a violent twat, and when it became public they were splitting, the wife maintained his behaviour was as such, but the husband became charitable and loving in the public eye.
Don't be so easily deceived. Both companies have had their serious shortcomings over the past 3 years.

[turbof1]

Thanks to all who stayed on topic. We appreciate that.

We also acknowledge there's an issue in general where people have a hard time to discuss what they want about Honda. It's a complex matter where a manufacturer is not competitor but a supplier.

To solve this, I opened up a General Honda F1 Topic. Any discussion about management, it's future in F1, etc. Can go in there. Please carefully read the first post. It contains info where you can post that does not relate to the General topic.

[Bence]

Thanks to all who stayed on topic. We appreciate that.

We also acknowledge there's an issue in general where people have a hard time to discuss what they want about Honda. It's a complex matter where a manufacturer is not competitor but a supplier.

To solve this, I opened up a General Honda F1 Topic. Any discussion about management, it's future in F1, etc. Can go in there. Please carefully read the first post. It contains info where you can post that does not relate to the General topic.

It would have been much simpler to rename this thread; deleting the word "unit"... Honda Power is an appropriate name for this discussion - as creative minds won't allow to be boxed in.

There can be a separate engine thread, but not this. This is already morphed too much to be a sanitized engine thread - therefore it is rich, colorful and enjoyable to read.

[Thunder]

I moved the Talk about what others might learn from the TR / Honda Collaboration to the General Honda Thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26921

[PlatinumZealot]

Finally Hasegawa attributes the MGUH bearing failures to a new 'oil blowing' used for 2017. This is not explained at all but I suspect that oil blowing is just an air line from the 'foam side' of the oil tank that allows the bearing cavities to be scavenged. Unlike the crankcase which can be scavenged without an air line due to blow-by, other cavities typically require a 'breathing' orifice with a restrictor that is adjusted to achieve the required cavity pressure.

These scavenge breathers have been used for a very long time in dry-sump racing engines and are very well understood. I fail to see what could have gone wrong - most likely the oil was not well separated in the tank and made its way into the air line, effectively preventing the bearing from being scavenged? Could the excess oil on the bearing and shaft increase dynamic loads and cause bearing failures ?
Anyway, according to the article, it took Honda quite a long time to understand what was happening and in the end they had to modify the oil tank to stop this 'oil blowing' and increase the size of the bearing.
Unfortunately the way I see it the MGUH failures were entirely Honda's doing.

Turbine engine bearings use oil mist lubrication so I am curious is Honda is using such methods in the MGUH. This could be something that Honda aircraft could be helping to develop?

[PlatinumZealot]

While honda made some miscalculations on the 2017 engine. Mclaren shouldn't escape blame either as their insane push to size 0 obviously had implications for Honda. Good words seem to be coming out of Honda, Torro Rosso and Red Bull about the 2018 Torro Rosso Honda package.

I would not use the term miscalculations. I honestly think Honda is working wonders under the circumstances. These engines are insanely complex plus they are prototypes and with any engineering design you usually adjust your calculations as you go along until you reach the final design. That is just normal engineering. But joining this formula so late Honda was forced to wash their dirty clothes infront of millions of eyes.. It can't have been easy.

[PlatinumZealot]

All these polititians can talk about is the oil tank that took one day and a bottle of glue to fix....

Oh please! guys.. Sure McLaren divorced Honda for that reason... Right....

[bauc]

All these polititians can talk about is the oil tank that took one day and a bottle of glue to fix....

Oh please! guys.. Sure McLaren divorced Honda for that reason... Right....

Nope, it just showed a fundamental mistake in design that should not have happened to experienced and mega manufacturer like Honda. It showed that Honda was truly lost and went backwards instead in development.

[bosyber]

So are the pictures posted in http://f1news.autoroad.cz/novinky/90154 ... ogalerie-1 new, or did we see those somewhere before. I don't really speak Czech, nor am I good enough at engines to tell for sure. Did someone see them before? Sorry, I don't really know how to get them out of the gallery where they are embedded as some kind of gif.

[G'dayBruce]

So are the pictures posted in http://f1news.autoroad.cz/novinky/90154 ... ogalerie-1 new, or did we see those somewhere before. I don't really speak Czech, nor am I good enough at engines to tell for sure. Did someone see them before? Sorry, I don't really know how to get them out of the gallery where they are embedded as some kind of gif.

Nice find

Do other manufacturers give away that much detail? Is the 2018 PU going to be that different that the 2017 one really has no secrets left to hide, externally at least?

[bosyber]

Well Mercedes did show good images of their 2014 engine after the season, didn't they? Though that had a neat cover over the top, making it much less clear what was going on under it!

[loner]

So are the pictures posted in http://f1news.autoroad.cz/novinky/90154 ... ogalerie-1 new, or did we see those somewhere before. I don't really speak Czech, nor am I good enough at engines to tell for sure. Did someone see them before? Sorry, I don't really know how to get them out of the gallery where they are embedded as some kind of gif.

Nice find

Do other manufacturers give away that much detail? Is the 2018 PU going to be that different that the 2017 one really has no secrets left to hide, externally at least?

didn't you see the Suzuka GP pics the swordsmith muramasa took some catchy awesome pics

[dren]

Nope, it just showed a fundamental mistake in design that should not have happened to experienced and mega manufacturer like Honda. It showed that Honda was truly lost and went backwards instead in development.

What was the fundamental mistake in design? Please enlighten us to the details. It is what the discussion is currently speculating.