Why is nobody discussing Bottas' Halo problems?

[Jolle]

Turbo, deflection doesn't mean it will slow down. Think about it before you reply. If an object (lets say a T-Camera from the top of the car) is cart wheeling down the track at and has slowed to 30mph and another car comes through blanchimont at 190mph, the camera hits the underside of the halo and deflects down or probably smashed into many small sharp pieces, they will be moving faster than the 30mph. So things dont always slow down

No it will slow down relative to the car speed. You are dealing with 2 opposing vectors. Say they are perfectly aligned, with the debris moving at 30 mph and the car 180 mph. When such piece has an unobstructed path to the driver, it will hit with 230mph. But, deflection will always take a chunk out of it. Even when the object is fragmented by the impact. Infact, a lot of the energy is dissipated by the object disintegrating.

Something with a physics background will probably more able to explain this. Perhaps the best example how disintegration dissipates energy, is the front crash structure, which has to meet specific deacceleration numbers through crumbling upon impact to dissipate as much energy as possible during a crash.

Plus, because of the angle of the Halo, it will deflect away from the driver, also simple basic physics. There is no angle on the halo that will cause it in a direct path towards the drivers head or body. Just look at the picture above.

[turbof1]

But the whole thing I'm saying is, the piece isn't on a path the driver until it hits the halo.

I accept that. Yes there's a theoritical possibility for this, even though the design of the halo factors that in.

Have a look at the bigger picture though: say a rear wing disintegrates into several tiny pieces in front of another driver. What would be less safe: the cockpit as it is now, or with a halo? I think the risk of sharp pieces being deflected by the halo towards the body, is completely outweighted by the decrease in risk of the halo blocking pieces going towards the body of the driver anyway.

Also note we have to bring the risk you mentioned in comparison with the decrease in risk by the halo blocking large pieces of debris. Currently a piece like the Massa spring is actually no longer an issue as helmet designs are reinforced. Bigger pieces that transfer large amounts of kynetic energy are a bigger issue.

If needed, the fia could mandate parts of the driver suit to be made of kevlar. That should stop sharp, small pieces from cutting through.

[NathanOlder]

I see what you are saying and I've always said I see why they have brought it in. I just feel they are reacting to other formulas rather than their own.

In that last few sentences of yours, why are the FIA waiting ? Why not introduce a kevlar suit now ? Carbon fibre parta wil smash to pieces right on top of the driver, like a grenade going off next to him.

1 final question, in the history of the sport, how many people have been killed by wheels becoming unattached ?

Then, of those you list, how many would have still died if they had todays wheel tethers.

[Jolle]

So now you're going from the argument of "the halo exposes the driver to new risks" to "we don't need the halo anyway"

well.
to recap:
-nobody asked for the damn thing; yes they did, drivers and teams asked for additional head protection
-car driving suppose to be dangerous: yes it is dangerous and everybody tries to reduce that risk.
-wheels don't come off cars anymore: they do, around 2-3 large objects a year come off the cars, wheels and/or nose cones. The halo also protects from car to car contact and flying under the barrier.
-what if the driver get trapped in case of fire!: Even Donneleys crash in the late 80's didn't start a fire. There are many many was fires have been dealt with.
-the halo might cave in on the driver: if the halo deforms, the impact has been so great that the driver wouldn't survived without
-it might defect debris into the cockpit: even if it does (which it doesn't), the particles would be so light (carbon pieces) that it wouldn't have any energy.
-it looks ugly: this is the only downside to the halo.

Reviewing lots of crashes from the past decade, it is very clear to me that F1 and open cockpit racing in general has been very lucky with the amount of deaths because of head injuries caused by loose parts, barriers and other cars.

[turbof1]

I see what you are saying and I've always said I see why they have brought it in. I just feel they are reacting to other formulas rather than their own.

In that last few sentences of yours, why are the FIA waiting ? Why not introduce a kevlar suit now ? Carbon fibre parta wil smash to pieces right on top of the driver, like a grenade going off next to him.

1 final question, in the history of the sport, how many people have been killed by wheels becoming unattached ?

Then, of those you list, how many would have still died if they had todays wheel tethers.

Concerning a wheel, only one case (Surtees 2009). A very, very unfortunate with a very low probability.

But, it is not only for blocking wheels that this hideous thing is designed for. For instance (but certainly not limited to) rhere have been quite a few cases where a complete car has been sliding over the nose and things like splitter or floor getting dangerously close to the driver's head. The crash between Alonso and Raikkonen in Austria 2015 comes to mind. Those cases ended well, but it also exposed a problem that there's nothing stopping a driver's head being crushed when the car on top of the tub has more momentum.

The Halo is designed to handled that!

Mind this is not a solution for the Bianchi crash. Infact, I doubt there ever will be one, other than changes in crash procedure protocol (which have been made).

[NathanOlder]

And Surtees raced in f1 when ?

Don't forget the Grosjean Alonso one at spa a few years back. That was close.
Maybe Alonso is the problem (joking)

As someone pointed out in another thread, if a car gor up on top of another and slid across like grosjean did to Alonso at spa, the Halo would have broken up the floor of the lotus and then youd have a hell of a lot of sharp nasty carbon fibre about.

[turbof1]

And Surtees raced in f1 when ?

Don't forget the Grosjean Alonso one at spa a few years back. That was close.
Maybe Alonso is the problem (joking)

As someone pointed out in another thread, if a car gor up on top of another and slid across like grosjean did to Alonso at spa, the Halo would have broken up the floor of the lotus and then youd have a hell of a lot of sharp nasty carbon fibre about.

Well, I took the concept "history of the sport" a bit broader . But as I mentioned, it's a very low probability.

In all honesty, if I had a choice of getting a 700kg car to my head, or having to deal with small sharp pieces, I'd take my chances with the sharp pieces.

[Manoah2u]

only inches people






a couple feet to the left and the outcome would have been different.




how can it not get in people's heads how lucky drivers have been without the halo/head protection and how close it has been several times. and don't say it didn't already happen, because you guys completely forget the avoidable and sad story about Maria de Villota, which would have 100% lived today with a halo present.
Bianchi is a huge question mark, but nobody can deny his chances atleast would have been bigger.

[marmer]

only inches people






a couple feet to the left and the outcome would have been different.




how can it not get in people's heads how lucky drivers have been without the halo/head protection and how close it has been several times. and don't say it didn't already happen, because you guys completely forget the avoidable and sad story about Maria de Villota, which would have 100% lived today with a halo present.
Bianchi is a huge question mark, but nobody can deny his chances atleast would have been bigger.

Those last two accidents you mention were not really racing incidents. And rules are now in place to stop them from happening again

[Manoah2u]

who cares wether they're racing incidents. you can make all the rules you want, if a 'rookie' comes blazing in like that, the danger is still existant. Rules won't change somebody's gas pedal behaviour on the start.

and you fail to understand the point. it doesn't matter whether they were or weren't racing incidents. they're extremely close calls. had there have been a halo, then there would have been as good as no danger at all. and that is what it's all about. inches from horrible death live on tv or room to spare to live to die another day.

[NathanOlder]

so do people really want to see the back of open cockpit racing ? Because thats basically what its going to take to put peoples minds at rest.

Once the cockpits are closed , then what ? closed wheels ?

[djos]

so do people really want to see the back of open cockpit racing ? Because thats basically what its going to take to put peoples minds at rest.

Once the cockpits are closed , then what ? closed wheels ?

If they look anything like this concept from Newey, I'm not going to complain.

[turbof1]

We don't need closed wheels for safety.

However, closed wheels are both aerodynamic efficient and actually reduce aero sensivity, reducing the impact of wake. So it might be in those regards desirable.

[NathanOlder]

so do people really want to see the back of open cockpit racing ? Because thats basically what its going to take to put peoples minds at rest.

Once the cockpits are closed , then what ? closed wheels ?

If they look anything like this concept from Newey, I'm not going to complain.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/86/bf/cd ... 6d6aff.jpg

I'd interested in knowimg how a driver gets out when its upside down.

As for that car, made the indy 500 about 45mins shorter for a quick buck.

[digitalrurouni]

PS. I'd be fully in favour of F1 going down the fighter canopy route:

https://www.motorsportweek.com/admin/ck ... -%2004.jpg

Me too! I totally stopped reading the thread after seeing that post. I been saying since day one to fighter plane cockpit the F1 cars! I mean LOOK - AT - THAT! Fans will be more interested. Cars will look jaw dropping and yeah protection from ALL directions! I have a feeling that will ultimately be the direction in the future and that won't hurt aero as well.