Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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savann
savann
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Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

Hello I am an industrial design student from Massey University.
I am in my final year of study and currently undertaking my major project.
My selected project is to design a speculative 2013-2018 sustainable formula vehicle.
I was wondering if you guys would like to participate in a survey exploring the thoughts of F1 enthusiast on the direction of Formula 1 and more specifically the direction of the vehicle.
I am new to the forum but have been visiting this website for about a year.
I am willing to post my progress whenever I have the time.

Survey questions
1. What direction are Formula 1 vehicles heading towards?
2. What type of engine will be introduced after the five year engine freeze?
3. What is your reaction towards the banning of winglet?
4. What is your opinion on unmanned Formula 1 vehicles, where drives pilot the vehicle from the pit lane?
5. What type of technology do you think will be available for formula 1 vehicle in 2013-2018? E.g. engine, fuel, drive-train, suspension and body panel.
6. What visual characteristics do you believe the vehicle will inherit? E.g. Centreline downwash generating wing.
7. Is there anything else you would like to add on the matter?

Thank you for your time.
Last edited by savann on 24 Apr 2008, 01:51, edited 1 time in total.

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checkered
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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Hi savann, I certainly

do hope that you make a point of posting your progress in some fashion. I'm thinking that this msgboard sports participants whose enthusiasm is expressed in ways that are not exclusive to lively banter, so any reflection from the "World beyond F1T" is undoubtedly that much more highly appreciated. I'm also curious how the "design" angle to the actual vehicles of F1 works out, them being "collections of imperfections in engineering necessity" (for the lack of a better term). Obviously it (design) is there, in devising the rules and key people exercising their imaginations through the process of creating something tangible to race on track. My above statement is of course biased by what I perceive your perspective on design being. Feel free to set the record straight if I'm miles (or less) off the mark.

1. The future, hopefully. To take even this for granted would IMO be a mistake.
2. Max Mosley/FIA(?) like to refer to a "low cost engine formula", perhaps thinking that periods of homologations should continue as a matter of cost savings principle. Advances in engineering and manufacturing will render this approach void before long; hopefully the efficiency in both will become such that a new, more liberal (and playful) paradigm becomes obvious.
3. A bit of a knee-jerk reaction. There's a good half century of processing power advancements ahead of us before we have more than we can make use of in aerodynamics, by some accounts.
4. The virtual experience will become more important, but the value in testing the entirety of human performance won't diminish by comparison.
5. Hopefully the multi-purpose function of the elements to the whole will become more pronounced in energy management and such.
6. It will be "open wheel" and relatable to whatever the notion of a "car" is. As 2013-2018 isn't that far away really, it's not likely to be something wholly unrecognisable to us.
7. Review what I wrote in this post before answering to your query.

Thank you for your questions.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

savann
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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I understand where you are coming from.
Design plays a very little part in the modern Formula 1 car.
They are well calculated machines and refined through (CFD, wind tune-testing and so on).
My project outcome will not go into the depths of Formula 1 in that regard mainly because of the tools and resources at my disposal.
I am trying to illustrate what a speculative 2013-2018 formula 1 vehicle could be and what technology it will inherit.
I will try to be as truthful to the vehicle and racing series as possible but I am not going to be able to produce a product/outcome to the standard of Formula 1.
It is very hard for me to think past the current Formula because I believe it is very close to perfection.
(What is the best way to up load pictures from your desktop into this forum?)

The product outcome should be similar to this but a bit more realistic and F1 orientated.
Acura FCX 2020 Le Mans
http://www.laautoshow.com/2007/DesignLA ... fault.aspx
Image
Image
Last edited by savann on 24 Apr 2008, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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for starters I believe F1 will always be open wheel racing.

F1 is run under the old maxime: Form follows function. there are so many rules in F1 that esthetics really play a very small role as you have realised for yourself

loading pics up is easy with http://imageshack.us/

fotobucket will also do but I found it a bit more hassle

Image

this image would never be seen, I believe. the head of the driver is over the front axle. this allows no energy absorbing crash zone ahead. F1 cars and tracks are the pinnacle of road racing performance combined with safety in motorsport. I will add info as I think of it.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 24 Apr 2008, 01:55, edited 2 times in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

The FOZ
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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savann wrote:Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle
Survey questions
1.What direction are Formula 1 vehicles heading towards?
More efficient vehicles, with KERS, and alternate fuels/lubricants on the powerplant side. The cars themselves are losing breadth of technology, in favour of depth in a few choice areas. The cars are trending towards simpler setups, which will be ideally more cost-effective.

2.What type of engine will be introduced after the five year engine freeze?
Alternate fuel, for sure, and likely higher revving to make better use of the KERS. Emission regulations may be in place, as well.

3. What is your reaction towards the banning of winglet?
If it cleans up the wake behind the cars, then by all means, it is a good thing. Cleaner wakes will make the races more entertaining because they will allow for more passing.
4.What is your opinion on unmanned Formula 1 vehicles, where drives pilot the vehicle from the pit lane?
Utter nonsense. You will never, ever, EVER get the same feeling in a simulator as you would in a real vehicle, because G forces cannot be replicated.
5.What type of technology do you think will be available for formula 1 vehicle in 2013-2018? E.g. engine, fuel, drive-train, suspension and body panel.
See above.
6.What visual characteristics do you believe the vehicle will inherit?
The vehicles will continue to become more organic in appearance, with further improved airflow.
7.Is there anything else you would like to add on the matter?
Thank you for your time.[/quote]

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flynfrog
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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by 2013 It should be a spec series if the current trend continues

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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1. What direction are Formula 1 vehicles heading towards?: Ahead, no reverse
2. What type of engine will be introduced after the five year engine freeze? Smaller turbo diesel
3. What is your reaction towards the banning of winglet? Relief
4. What is your opinion on unmanned Formula 1 vehicles, where drives pilot the vehicle from the pit lane? Lame. I have radiocontrolled cars, but I won't spend a fortune in them. Ridiculous. How about robotic football players?
5. What type of technology do you think will be available for formula 1 vehicle in 2013-2018? E.g. engine, fuel, drive-train, suspension and body panel: smaller engine, limited fuel, no major changes in drive-train, gyroscopic dampers?, variable size cells for panels?
6. What visual characteristics do you believe the vehicle will inherit? E.g. Centreline downwash generating wing: Cleaner look, I hope. No CDG, wider diffuser, narrower rear wing, lower front wing

What's a sustainable vehicle? There are no sustainable vehicles if it means what I think: a car with no footprint on the environment.
Ciro

savann
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Sustainability is a series of principles that questions the current vehicle, questioning whether or not things can be made greener, economical and more socially acceptable.
Here are some drawings I’ve done, they are a bit dated but illustrate my ideal 2007/2008 vehicle.
It’s a bit generic but I was focusing on the winglet, chimney, t-wing and flip-ups.
This will not suit all parties but shows my perspective from late 2007.
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by savann on 24 Apr 2008, 13:35, edited 2 times in total.

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johny
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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This one will maybe comply 2020 F1 rules

Image

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WhiteBlue
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Ciro Pabón wrote:... 5. What type of technology do you think will be available for formula 1 vehicle in 2013-2018? E.g. engine, fuel, drive-train, suspension and body panel: smaller engine, limited fuel, no major changes in drive-train, gyroscopic dampers?, variable size cells for panels?
....
re drivetrain I actually see some chance that they could use the ToroTrax continous transmission if they are successfull with the flywheel concept. it looks like a usefull thing (aren't CVTs banned?).
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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savann wrote:I understand where you are coming from. Design plays a very little part in the modern Formula 1 car. They are well calculated machines and refined through (CFD, wind tune-testing and so on).

My project outcome will not go into the depths of Formula 1 in that regard mainly because of the tools and resources at my disposal. I am trying to illustrate what a speculative 2013-2018 formula 1 vehicle could be and what technology it will inherit.

I will try to be as truthful to the vehicle and racing series as possible but I am not going to be able to produce a product/outcome to the standard of Formula 1. It is very hard for me to think past the current Formula because I believe it is very close to perfection.
I don't think I wanted

to imply that (visual, industrial) design plays a lesser part in Formula One than in any other pursuit. I only feel it is traditionally somewhat more intractable because the process is so convoluted. There's also a certain cultural expectation of "purity" i.e. going to an extreme in F1, something that is perhaps (unnecessarily) regarded as beyond visual design's realm. The process of shaping the vehicle happens on so many layers in F1: Image, purpose, advertising, performance, emotion, rules, politics, driveability, relevance, ideas, you name it. Therefore I hold the visual approach as certainly no lesser than any other; IMO you're well within your rights to choose the aspects that are most pertinent to your approach and expand from there on as you see fit - like in your drawn studies of contemporary F1 cars.

I quite like the "LA Auto Show Design Challenge" for the outrageousness of it. One of their strengths is that the participants are commissioned an "impossible" challenge so they can design in a more liberal framework of responsibility and in a playful state of mind. In fact, I think I featured their robot car challenge somewhere around here. Sometimes artists go for controversy and outrageousness as an absolute value, something that removes the rationale of using these value based attributes from the subservience of the work itself. This seems somewhat cynical and usually turns my interest off - a more frequent occurrence than I'd like it to be. I think "LA Auto Show" is on more solid ground by imposing a degree of "impossible" on the participants, therefore removing at least part of the pressure of considering or promoting issues secondary to the art of design itself from them.

As to Formula One being "close to perfection", well yes, the teams do a decent job on that front on their part. Within the rules and realities compelling them. The question for me therefore is: How close to "perfection" are "image, purpose, advertising, performance, emotion, rules, politics, driveability, relevance, ideas, you name it" then? There should be ample room to illustrate options within a fraction of those. In my view you are as liberated by the resources you have as the resources you don't have. No single person makes F1, or any aspect of it, into being what it is anyway (even though there are some who manage to emanate such confidence nonetheless).

Ciro raises an important point i.e. "what is a sustainable vehicle"? (And answers quite correctly that none come close enough at present) Obviously, Formula One will struggle terribly for all the resources it requires to come even close to a zero sum game within its own materials' and energy cycles (even though the sport does buy carbon offsets, it has to be remembered). Given that what is being physically done with a couple of dozen vehicles is going to have a minuscule effect on a Global scale anyway the question is, rationally, more about what Formula One can do to enhance the sustainability of the 600M+ passenger (plus other) cars on the roads?

Fortunately the ecological aspect it is not solely your responsibility, nor mine. Some solutions we can come up with and just contend to being a part of a multitude of other brilliant improvements on the way. Rest assured, whatever you come up with, it will be " to the standard of F1" - this is a human activity after all. Lofty goals can make one lose perspective. Now, if only I could be regularly reminded to hold on to this ethos myself at all times ...
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

savann
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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Thank you for your response. You have identified areas of the sport I have been thinking of and taken into consideration. Your feedback is very rich in information and clearly comes from the technical/engineering perspective.

Something that I have noticed is that all the F1 spectators/enthusiasts that I have come across are very happy with the current Formula and their forecasted ideas are projected into the near future opposed to the distant future.

This project is about push the envelope beyond the future FIA concord/rules forecasted by Max (yes he has put himself in an horrific situation) but it has a clear direction and trend.

This may alienate some automotive enthusiast but “whether we like it or not, motor racing in its present form is an anachronism in an age where concerns such as climate change, sustainability and dwindling natural resources are daily issues. It may be a hard pill for the purists to swallow but motor racing has to clean up its act. A sport that portrays itself to the outside world as a profligate waste of finite resources such as fossil fuels is going to find itself at least marginalised, if not outlawed altogether, in the not so distant future. Laugh off that statement if you wish, but remember that 15 years ago laughter would also have been the reaction to anyone who had said that hunting would be banned and smoking in public places would be severely restricted by 2007.” (Racetechmag Issue 10/2007 P.18)

It has taken a long time to assimilate these ideas, but I personally believe the future of Formula 1 can please the general public while staying true to itself. This project is to flesh out the information and forecast the most probable scenario and vehicle.

I selected this website/forum because of the quality information discussed on day to day bases. I would encourage whoever takes an interest in this project to participate in the discussion and survey because you guys are putting out good ideas like the “Ferrari” nosecone.

I would really like to know your perspective on the matter.

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checkered
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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Manchild's nosecone thread

was a brilliant bit of intuition on his part; as an idea it's very, very specific though. For example, it's not something that other teams are likely to be able to incorporate quickly - it's in the upstream area of the vehicle, for one. And who's to say that 2009 won't see such structures ruled out altogether? Expand the examples to wider concepts: Could it be that F1 aerodynamics are going to be more dependent on channelled or covered flows and ducts? The shaping of such a vehicle could be distinctive. It's not an unexplored area within motorsport and you'll find much discussions on the general merits of this, too, if you're interested.

As to the Race Tech quote, basically I agree (if we'll go into more detail, it'll have to be later on). You're going to be very much in the business of conveying those ideas in your work, both to those that are concerned about racing and to those that are concerned about sustainability. An increasing number embrace both interests in one way or another; my main wish currently is that this embracement would be based on at least a relatively realistic assesment of the merits of both. People tend to get on the defensive when something doesn't fit their emotional idea of "a good life".
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

savann
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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“Could it be that F1 aerodynamics are going to be more dependent on channelled or covered flows and ducts?”

This could be an area F1 teams explore/exploit because of the banning of winglets and external aero appendages. I have a couple of ideas that utilise this philosophy but they are very primitive and not aerodynamically refined or accurate, they could make it into the final design of the future vehicle depending on its suitability to the project.

When I saw the idea I thought that it was brilliant and would suit the Renault nosecone because of the semi-enclosed front wing element. It defiantly reminded me of the Spyker C8 front section and sport/super cars the channel air flow in that manner. I’m very interested in this type of design and that is why I found myself visiting this site more and more.

“My main wish currently is that this embracement would be based on at least a relatively realistic assesment of the merits of both.”

It may seem fashionable to turn green but for motor racing it needs to change/evolve to sustain the future prospects of the sport. I want the outcome of this project to be as realistic as possible. That is why feedback is essential at this point of the project.

There are plenty of speculations that nano-technology will be available roughly around 2015 but this is an unrealistic scenario. I am looking more at KERS mechanical/heat recovery, MAD moveable-aero-dynamics, alternative engines/power-train, future F1 car styling, drive-by-wire and so on.

People do become defensive when something they are passionate about becomes questioned like the environmentalist, animal activist and automotive enthusiasts.

It is a very ambitious project but it will be worthwhile - like I said before I am willing to post my progress whenever I have time. At this stage of the project I will be gathering information wherever possible then moving on to drawing and then CAD modelling, no CFD or wind tunnel testing because of the tools and resources at my disposal.

Any information on this topic will be helpful.

savann
savann
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Re: Speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle

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Hello all my report is slowly coming to a conclusion.

The majority of the research has been performed and specific trends and technology have been identified.

Here are three concepts that illustrate my current interoperation of a speculative 2013-2018 sustainable Formula 1 vehicle.

I wish I could explain the concepts more in depth but I don’t really have the time.

• Three quarter view.
• general layout.
• specs.

Feedback would be ideal but please have in mind this is a personal point of view and is only speculative.

Thanks.

Concept: 1

Image

Image


Specs
• Engine: Electric onboard motor.
• Power: 700bhp 19,000 RPM.
• Gearbox: 2 speed.
• Differential: electronically controlled.
• Nano Safe batteries.
• KERs: mechanical drive-train.
• Monocoque: carbon-fibre/Aluminium honeycomb.
• Drive-by-wire.

Concept: 2

Image

Image

Specs
• Engine: electric in-hub-motor.
• Power: 730bhp 21,000 RPM.
• Nano Safe batteries
• Heat Sink
• KERs: primitive Heat energy recovery system
• Monocoque: carbon-fibre/aluminium honeycomb
• Shape changing material on two front wing elements and one rear wing element.
• Drive-by-wire.

Concept: 3

Image

Image

Specs
• Engine: electric in-hub-motor.
• Power: 760bhp 24,000 RPM.
• Nano Safe batteries
• KERs: 1 to 1 ratio Input/output heat energy recovery system
• Monocoque: Self-reinforced-polypropylene with Carbon-Nano-Tubs compound.
• Shape changing material on front wing, rear wing and side pods intake.
• Air brakes
• Drive-by-wire.