General Honda F1 Topic

[lio007]

Thank you Talisman!

I really don't understand, when they have a lot less manpower and budget compared to Mercedes, Ferrari and maybe even Renault, why they don't hire staff or increase the Budget. I know that's not the silver bullet, but it can not hurt.

Because it's called a budget. The F1 PU program has a certain value to HRD. The higher-ups determine what that value is and then spend accordingly. Obviously it's worth more to Mercedes (almost double). It's not a win at all cost philosophy although that's what many things may want or think.

Thank you for your reply!
Wow...almost double, thats quite a lot. Considering that difference, the guys in Sakura are doing a good job!
I want to make clear, that I have the highest respect for your friends at Honda. I imagine it was sometimes tricky to stay focussed and motivated (at least for me it would have been) watching the results on track or reading some headlines in the media.
I really hope Honda get their act together and show what they are capable of and doing well on track with Toro Rosso.

Do you think it's a big problem to do/produce all the McLaren-parts (mgu-h...) on your own?

[Hino]

F1 Sokuho 14 page insight / interview:
Too small and blurry? I will post the high resolution preview when it becomes available if this can't be translated properly.

@Hino could help you with the translation. And I could post the translation on TR Honda's thread

I'm interested in this read, I'll see what I can do? If I can get a high resolution source, I'll give it a try. I've fallen behind on the RA616H article for personal reasons and just have not had the time to do it.

[HPD]

I'm interested in this read, I'll see what I can do? If I can get a high resolution source, I'll give it a try. I've fallen behind on the RA616H article for personal reasons and just have not had the time to do it.

Yes. Do not worry, @talisman also gave us a mini summary. It seems that there is not much more information.
Here in the forum we appreciate the work of translation. So do not go far, we'll have more news soon, haha.
Thank @Hino!

[Manoah2u]

My biggest fear with Honda is that they'll do a repeat of 2009 and abandon just when they actually have something impressive. It plagued my mind to see what might have been had Bruno Senna been in that Honda alongside Button, and what might have been. It could have made a fantasticly different story for Bruno. Also, i think it's rather guaranteed that Mercedes AMG then never had happened as a works team as they took over Brawn. That would have meant that Mclaren surely have kept their Mercedes partnership and we would have seen a dominant Mclaren as of 2014.

And if Honda had that success in 2009, they surely would have kept being relatively competitive in 2010 as Brawn suffered in 2009 from a missing budget, which obviously negatively effected the team. Surely the title fight would have been between Honda and RedBull in 2010, as both were the ones to come up with the special diffusers, and Honda would have been motivated to keep developing and improving thanks to winning the WDC and WCC in 2009.

It also would have meant they did not step out, and started developing their V6T engine way earlier than they have done now, and that only grows my curiosity on what that would have done for 2014.

Would Hamilton have moved to be @ Honda in 2013? Would he have stayed @ Mclaren? Would Brawn have stayed at Honda or would he have moved to Mclaren? How about Niki Lauda? How about Toto Wolff? Could Mercedes instead have moved to Williams ? or Force India to make their 'Works team'?

The same goes for Toyota. I felt gutted to see them 'abruptly' stop like that, and i have such questions about that gorgeous red 2010 Toyota car that Stefanovich bought. And that also goes for BMW to a degree.

I just really really hope that Honda doesn't decide at certain point in the 'near' future to pull it once again. That would be devastating. I really want to see a competitive Honda engine, especially with their 'tiny' budget being the 'underdog'. I personally wonder whether Force india and Honda wouldn't be a magnficient combination if Honda had an engine that is able to beat Mercedes ICE or be on even grounds. that would make a combo of 2 'manufacturers', one a F1 team/chassis that is able to do great things with a tiny budget, and Honda the engine manufacturer with a (relatively) tiny budget. If instead the project doesn't end up working for some reason; and they pull out, then that would doom many other potential manufacturers from entering F1.

the engine revision is coming closer and closer, which should be interesting though.
I really hope Aston Martin/Cosworth will join hands and make something worthwile - even though that paints a confusing picture for Honda's deal with TR/Marko/RB. I also really hope that Toyota will return to F1 if Honda manages to be successful. BMW would also be a treat, as would Porsche/Audi, or perhaps Lamborghini.

There's a lot on Honda's shoulders. Let's hope something great happens in 2018. I do believe partnering Toro Rosso is a much better alternative than Sauber.

[etusch]

Very good comment @Manoah2u. Now honda is very good at whole world sales. Some manufacturers uses same base architecture for all small and big cars. By this way they make more profit. Honda couldn't do that because when I tried to change my broken suspention part it would very different with 1.4 hb with my 1.8 hb.

[Talisman]

https://abload.de/img/20180121-011ohrvd.jpg

Asaki says 2018 spec is almost complete, wants half a season before the full strength of PU is realised?

http://members.f1-life.net/regular/62701/

Hopefully one of our Japanese posters translates properly:

"Both of us were beasts and we've been using these animals for a long time recently, so these beasts are getting worse recently, so it will be a smart guy, but then it can not win and that kind of person races I was expecting to return to Honda-like Honda where people like beasts can be active in the Asaki regime.

Sorry I missed this first time round. I quite liked this article, it gives an insight into the change of culture resulting from the management reshuffle for this season.

'Asaki looks like a kind man but inside he's full on Honda. After a stint in F1 development with the 2nd era he entered mass production car development where he saved Honda's bacon several times. Although having a strong history with V6 designs he ignored his superiors and put an inline 4 into the Honda Odyssey. Despite Mercedes and Chrysler failing with the technology he developed a cylinder de-activation system for the Accord and when Honda were on the verge of withdrawing from the kei car sector (660 cc and below) he masterminded the N Box which turned a rapid sales decline into an equally rapid surge.

He says that the more people say something is impossible, the harder he tries. In that sense he is very much old Honda, the image of Honda people still hold.

(This following bit is interesting and uncharacteristically or perhaps characteristically sharp)

Yamamoto sitting beside him says that they've both monstered their way through to this point together, but that such people are becoming rarer and rarer, replaced by people who know the right things to say. However such people (the ones who know what to say) don't know how to win and such people shouldn't be allowed to race.

The 2018 engine is almost complete so its too late for there to be any influence (from Asaki I assume). Asaki himself says he would like another six months as it takes time.

Those who believe that Honda lacked a little something up until now will be reassured by Araki's mentality. It may be that the first part of the season may be spent merely trying to get the unit to survive races but the second and third units should start showing what Honda are capable of, a Honda-like Honda. An engine that doesn't rage like a beast isn't like a real Honda.

[Talisman]

One difficulty that has come up with moving from McLaren to STR is that several components were designed and sourced from McLaren and bringing these in-house is a priority. Also McLaren procured the batteries from European suppliers, in the future they will have to be designed and built in Japan, this brings logistical problems as transporting large batteries is an issue.

Thank you Talisman.
How can it be a problem that Honda manufactures the batteries in Japan and then has to transport them to England?
During the year, the team must also transport all parts including the batteries from one race to another all over the world.

I think I misunderstood a little. The plan was always to have McLaren procure the battery packs initially then Honda take over responsibility. They don't make it clear whether Honda had taken it back in-house by the time they split with McLaren but they say that producing the batteries in Japan is logistically difficult because air-freighting them across to Europe is not easy due to regulations, therefore the batteries alone were taken care of at the Milton Keynes site.

I understand what you are asking, perhaps the air freight regulations differ depending on whether the batteries are integrated into a larger device or whether they are being transported on their own. The article isn't clear.

[63l8qrrfy6]

All manufacturers have to meet UN 38.3 in order to transport batteries. I don't see why Honda can't do it.

[Talisman]

Also, i think it's rather guaranteed that Mercedes AMG then never had happened as a works team as they took over Brawn. That would have meant that Mclaren surely have kept their Mercedes partnership and we would have seen a dominant Mclaren as of 2014.

Mercedes staying with McLaren could have completely changed the face of F1 today.

When Mercedes took over Brackley they did so on the understanding that they could compete and succeed on their existing budget, a large chunk of which was spent on driver salaries. After a couple of years of failure they were then convinced to significantly increase their investment in F1 which coincided with the new PU rules being published. Therefore they used a large part of that increased funding to develop their new V6 hybrid, the results of which are obvious to everyone.

If Mercedes stayed with McLaren I suspect they'd have seen a little more success than they did in the initial Brackley years, a few victories perhaps, maybe a sniff at the championship through a season or two. Therefore the same impetus to significantly boost investment may not have been there and Mercedes may not have been in a position to lavish money on the V6 hybrid.

Its an interesting thought.

[Talisman]

Thank you Talisman!

I really don't understand, when they have a lot less manpower and budget compared to Mercedes, Ferrari and maybe even Renault, why they don't hire staff or increase the Budget. I know that's not the silver bullet, but it can not hurt.

Because it's called a budget. The F1 PU program has a certain value to HRD. The higher-ups determine what that value is and then spend accordingly. Obviously it's worth more to Mercedes (almost double). It's not a win at all cost philosophy although that's what many things may want or think.

Are you aware of any reconsideration or reflection from the higher-ups following the very high PR cost that the F1 project sustained when they were effectively dumped by McLaren? That continued failure to catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari (and possibly Renault if they have also finally been allowed more money by Mr Ghosn) could perhaps undo any PR benefit from participating in F1? Or is the benefit mainly counted in terms of R/D, technology spin-offs and staff training/assessment?

[Wazari]

Thank you Talisman!

I really don't understand, when they have a lot less manpower and budget compared to Mercedes, Ferrari and maybe even Renault, why they don't hire staff or increase the Budget. I know that's not the silver bullet, but it can not hurt.

Because it's called a budget. The F1 PU program has a certain value to HRD. The higher-ups determine what that value is and then spend accordingly. Obviously it's worth more to Mercedes (almost double). It's not a win at all cost philosophy although that's what many things may want or think.

Are you aware of any reconsideration or reflection from the higher-ups following the very high PR cost that the F1 project sustained when they were effectively dumped by McLaren? That continued failure to catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari (and possibly Renault if they have also finally been allowed more money by Mr Ghosn) could perhaps undo any PR benefit from participating in F1? Or is the benefit mainly counted in terms of R/D, technology spin-offs and staff training/assessment?

PR cost? The segment of the population that is aware that Honda is even involved in F1 is miniscule. Whether Honda is involved in F1 or not will not affect passenger car sales one iota. There is no "win on Sunday sell on Monday" in F1. I highly doubt that even exists in NASCAR anymore. If JGR wins the Daytona 500, people aren't going to flock to their nearest Toyota dealership to drive away in a new Camry.

I honestly believe that F1 racing today for manufacturers is mainly a very expensive way to achieve R & D, employ a few people and more importantly than anything else a huge, legal tax write-off. At the end of day, it's the top executives with strong advice from the bean-counters that decide how much money will be afforded to go racing. It's a rich man's game.

[f1316]

I think to call the F1 audience minuscule is to slightly downplays or under value the reach of F1 which, whilst it may seem fairly niche at times, is one of the most watched weekly sports in the world.

To put it another way, rather than PR cost, there is a lack of potential benefits realisation - I.e. they’re likely (and you correct me if you know otherwise, of course) not seeing the marketing return on their investment that would have been forecast to follow reasonable sporting results. I find it hard to believe budgets are purely based on R&D value with no marketing budget attributed to it (F1 is essentially Ferrari’s entire marketing budget).

Look at the marketing value Toto Wolf puts on their success, for example ($2.9bn!):

http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Global ... value.aspx

So it’s likely a significant swing between the positive brand value of doing well vs not.

[Talisman]

Because it's called a budget. The F1 PU program has a certain value to HRD. The higher-ups determine what that value is and then spend accordingly. Obviously it's worth more to Mercedes (almost double). It's not a win at all cost philosophy although that's what many things may want or think.

Are you aware of any reconsideration or reflection from the higher-ups following the very high PR cost that the F1 project sustained when they were effectively dumped by McLaren? That continued failure to catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari (and possibly Renault if they have also finally been allowed more money by Mr Ghosn) could perhaps undo any PR benefit from participating in F1? Or is the benefit mainly counted in terms of R/D, technology spin-offs and staff training/assessment?

PR cost? The segment of the population that is aware that Honda is even involved in F1 is miniscule. Whether Honda is involved in F1 or not will not affect passenger car sales one iota. There is no "win on Sunday sell on Monday" in F1. I highly doubt that even exists in NASCAR anymore. If JGR wins the Daytona 500, people aren't going to flock to their nearest Toyota dealership to drive away in a new Camry.

I honestly believe that F1 racing today for manufacturers is mainly a very expensive way to achieve R & D, employ a few people and more importantly than anything else a huge, legal tax write-off. At the end of day, it's the top executives with strong advice from the bean-counters that decide how much money will be afforded to go racing. It's a rich man's game.

Interesting thanks. I certainly could not understand how Honda could justify solely on commercial grounds such a large investment (regardless of what the others might be spending I'm sure F1 for Honda is its single biggest racing expenditure) in a sport whose existence is barely acknowledged in Honda's main markets, a sport that does its best to avoid recruiting new fans by hiding behind pay to view and shockingly expensive ticket prices.

That said I do think there is SOME commercial benefit (and therefore loss if mismanaged) just as continued participation in international motorsport over previous decades helped differentiate Honda from rivals such as Toyota in the Japanese market. It might be difficult to measure the effect but it certainly helps shape brand perception positively or negatively especially if there is persistent failure to catch up with rivals.

[restless]

PR cost? The segment of the population that is aware that Honda is even involved in F1 is miniscule. Whether Honda is involved in F1 or not will not affect passenger car sales one iota. There is no "win on Sunday sell on Monday" in F1. I highly doubt that even exists in NASCAR anymore. If JGR wins the Daytona 500, people aren't going to flock to their nearest Toyota dealership to drive away in a new Camry.

I honestly believe that F1 racing today for manufacturers is mainly a very expensive way to achieve R & D, employ a few people and more importantly than anything else a huge, legal tax write-off. At the end of day, it's the top executives with strong advice from the bean-counters that decide how much money will be afforded to go racing. It's a rich man's game.

Sorry, but you are wrong.
Even if 1% of men are interested in F1 these are the most active pro-auto part of population and will have much higher influence on buying decisions.
last 3 years of failures severely damaged Honda's image between F1 enthusiasts in Europe.
Much more than if there was no participation at all.

[Wazari]

Sorry, but you are wrong.
Even if 1% of men are interested in F1 these are the most active pro-auto part of population and will have much higher influence on buying decisions.
last 3 years of failures severely damaged Honda's image between F1 enthusiasts in Europe.
Much more than if there was no participation at all.

Well then, we will have to just agree to disagree as I believe nowhere near 1% of the total men living are interested in F1. Also being in the auto industry for over 40 years, I know race fans do not any more influence on auto buying decisions than other segments of the general population.

Honda's auto sales were 4.014 million units in 2013 with an increase each year since then to 5.028 million last year. So Honda's lack of success in F1 obviously did not hurt their car sales. The sales in the US were proportionate to worldwide increases. Now motorcycle sales are a different story with racing have a big effect on future sales.

I think many race fans overestimate the commercial value of F1 in the consumer market. Ferrari is a poor example. They sell everything they produce because their total volume is so small. Being a Ferrari owner and having been around many other Ferrari owners over the several decades, I can tell they can care less if Ferrari races in F1 let alone if they win or not. It's the non Ferrari owners that are the Ferrari fanatics.