holy crap, i never saw it coming!!! (Button)

[Monstrobolaxa]

To tell you my opinion Button should have stayed at BAR at least one more season...only this year Willis figured out the cars aero and he's on the way up the hill.....Jenson should have stayed at BAR at least if they keep on climbing like this year BAR might continue to be a better package then Williams.

[Guest]

yea i guess we all know what button wants. its probably all money which in my opinion makes a horrible driver if all he cares about is money

[bernard]

What do you mean, just about money? I think many people have lost perspective here, they only remember what happened in the last race max.
Just look at Williams and then look at BAR... as close as last season BAR was lost, nobody regarded it as one of the "good" teams. During the wintertesting most people thought BAR's speed was because of low weight. Don't tell me you didn't, as many people did.
I think Button does the right thing, not maybe ethically, but he was stuck in BAR for a long time, after having a fantastic first year on williams. Then BAR rises up suddenly, partially due to other team's problems, and Jenson gets a chance to show what he's got. So he seized the chance and switched to a good team. If he had decided to stay at BAR, there would have been a good chance that a second opportunity never comes, and his career has the same destiny as Nick Heidfelds seems to have.
So it's a good decision to switch to a team that can keep you in the headlines even with a crap car, and a history of worldchampionships, not to mention experience.
You shouldn't forget that BAR hasn't always been in the same position as it is now, and nothing says it will last.

[sharkie17]

i hate to say this to you Bernard, but your reasoning doesnt make sense.

Honda, who undoubtly makes some of the best engine in F1, commits wholeheartedly to BAR, even promising R&D time into the chassis part of the equation. This was done several months BEFORE JB's exit clause came into affect. BAR finds the formula to go quick, and its not just one of the driver since BOTH drivers are going very very quick. Everyone agrees that with Honda's mighty R&D behind the team, they cannot get worse, only better. This all happened all before JB's exit clause came into effect.

This fact, along with good results tells me that BAR Honda is definately a team that is going up, not down.

JB was "stuck" at BAR for a long time? LMAO!! Come on Bernard, JB only joined BAR in 2003!! Yes he did ok his first year (finishing 8th in the standings with Willams in his debut year) but he finished 9th with BAR in 2003. This year? it wont be 8th or 9th, i can tell you that right now. BAR didnt "rise" up suddenly just because other teams had problems. If you really think that Williams and Mclarens were happy with their 2nd and 3rd place and sat on their collective asses to be mediocre again, you are being naive. The fact is, BAR wants to win just like everyone else and they came up with a brilliant car and an engine. And guess what? if you think that they will just sit on thier asses and let it go at that, you are wrong again. They know what they have in JB and they are dedicated to giving him a car that will take home a championship. Period. Honda wants their 12th championship. You can bet your last euro on that. Calling BAR a "bad" team like you suggested is really an ignorant statement.

you say that its good to switch to a team that can keep you in the headlines even in a crap car? It's doing Kimi LOTS of good, isnt it? come on.

history of world championships? hmm... last i recall, Honda owns 11 of them. (NOT to mention experience)

and you are saying that BAR phenomenon wont last?

well, lets see... BAT, one of the biggest tobacco company in the world is getting some serious publicity out of its F1 program... They know that if they win some races, (and maybe in the future, win a championship) they will benefit from serious winfall of publicity... Aww, screw it. we dont want all the publicity. let the F1 program go to the dirt.... YEAH, RIGHT.



BTW, Marboro is thinking about buying the WHOLE Livery from Ferrari. I guess they are doing that because they are losing races.

[sharkie17]

oops... hehe.

Bottom line:

JB should stick his contract out with BAR like a man of honor and stop all the nonsense. I dont know what his motives are, only he knows, but he is definately making a wroing choice.


(i heard that money can be a mighty good motivator... and after seeing the situation as it lies, it remains my only logical conclusion that money MIGHT had something to do with it... im not saying that it was, but seems likely... )


"im gonna make you an offer you can't refuse."

[bernard]

Well, sharkie, I seriously doubt money was behind jensons move. As far as i know, BAR is not a poor team, and with their recent success, it won't be a problem for them. Williams, on the other hand, got their financing from BMW cut, and they have said they won't pay their drivers large sums of cash.

Success in F1 is by no means guaranteened just because you have some good designers and serious players(honda) behind you. Look at mclaren. Their team is one of the best on the grid, and their design team is very talented, filled with top designers. Yet they made a car that sucked ass, infact two of them in a row. But their experience and years and years of working on top of F1 enabled them to make their lame car great. I seriously doubt BAR could turn the same situation around should it occur next season. This is where experience counts.

And I'm not saying BAR is definately going down, I'm just saying it's good to switch teams now, rather than taking the risk of sinking with the team.
Jenson has done his two years of contract. He has done them well. But he has to be able to go forward in his career, without the guys at BAR clinging on to him. He is not Schumacher; He is not tied to the same team for the rest of his life.

[Becker4]

i see one main difference between BAR and williams - williams exists to race, and BAR exists to make its sponsors money. honda and BAT are involved with BAR and keep it alive because it makes them richer via exposure. Williams gets people like BMW and budweiser because frank and patrick head have been racing all there life, they have a passion for it, and they do what they have to to keep racing and winning - which means finding sponsors. am i saying that geoff willis and david richards aren't passionate about racing? absolutely not - just that the people who brought them all together, the people who allow them to race, aren't. i think that this is a major factor in choosing a team - one based on passion, one based on money. i am a fan of BAR, especially geoff willis, and i think that ethically button is making a bad choice. but he is a british driver, williams is a british team that he has grown up watching, and probably dreamt about driving for as a child. there passion is proven, as is there perseverence, BARs, as of yet, is not. if they are still around in 20 years, maybe then they will have the history and the championships to be on par with williams.

[sharkie17]

You really cant assume that BAR is in it just for the money. it is true that the people that bought the old Tyrell team have a lots of money... but you also have to realize that BAT dont need BAR to do well to make money, they are already making their money off Benson & Hedges. I really dont think that BAT's motive is to make money off F1. If that was their goal, they would have pulled out after one year. (since their first few years were NOT very successful and you have to admit that running a F1 outfit takes a LOT of money.) If i was an BAT executive and they were spending upwards of 100 millions (or more) and NOT getting any return for it? i would have pulled the plug. People at BAR is just as committed to winning then anybody else in F1 today (except maybe Minardi). Honda certainly dont need the publicity, they are already one of the top manufacturers of automobile and already had success in every major motor sports, including F1 (11 driver and constructors championships with various teams).
Making a distinction by saying Williams exist only for racing and BAR does not is rather naive to me.

Anyway, JB is under a contract... he should honor that contract. He is a British bloke afterall. (men of honor and all that).

[Becker4]

but you also have to realize that BAT dont need BAR to do well to make money, they are already making their money off Benson & Hedges. I really dont think that BAT's motive is to make money off F1. If that was their goal, they would have pulled out after one year.


Anyway, JB is under a contract... he should honor that contract. He is a British bloke afterall. (men of honor and all that).

BAT is a major corporation who's sole purpose for existing is to make money, and every endeavor undertaken by that corporation is in support of it. is they were not making money of BAR, then yes, they would have pulled the plug. but anyone who knows the basics of running a buisness knows you cannot expect an immediate return on an investment. with an investment as substantial as that put forth by BAT into BAR, the reason to keep at it is even greater - look at toyota, they are investing huge amounts without great results, but few deny that with they're recources, they will remain without success for much longer. BAT must have had the same idea, and it worked, they're investments have finally started paying off this year. honda has the same story - they actually were going to pull out until recently, because BAR wasn't being successful, and they werent getting the right type of exposure they wanted to make money. that is obviously not a move that people who were in this for the sake of racing would have done, but one made my people concerned with profits. look at mclaren, another team existing to race, and run by racers; when they happened upon there poor preformances of the past years, did they just sit around? did they want to pull the plug and get out of racing? no, they fought back, and seem to be well on there way with the 19B. my point is that the main people behind BAR - the ones writing the checks - ARE in formula one for exposure (money). i have little confidence that if BAR happens upon a bad spell where they have little results, as they did when the first started, they would be sold. then, you wouldn't have the excuse of needing more time for an investment to come to fruition, as BAT had for the first few years - the time has passed now, and if they failed, then it becomes a bad investment, and time to pull out. if williams came upon such a time, i think they are more likely to pull through as a team, because its owners are racers at heart, and will not give up until doing everything possible to keep going in one form or another. im not saying that i DO think bar will fail - im just using it as an example to show the character difference between the owners of the teams, and hence between the teams themselves. if david richards buys BAR, then it would be a different story. is this the reason that jenson switched? i have no idea. but it is something to think about it.
and i agree about the men of honor bit, i don't think he should have switched, at least in this way, as i said in my last post.

[Aradea]

yeah... U said it sharkie17. to even think that Williams and BAR-Honda aren't in the same level is nonsense !...
Honda would not sign a new contract if they think BAR don't have the motivation to succeed in F1. Geoff Willis would not come to BAR and sure is hell Dave Richards wont be in charge of them now.. if BAR exist in F1 for attracting sponsors, the BAT would have stick with Craig Pollock !
The way I see it, the only team that in it for the sponsorship is Minardi...

Every team will improve on every season, and BAR sure got the resources for it. you cannot say that just because Williams are in F1 much longer than BAR, they got the skills to turn things around when things aren't going so well.. that's too naive (like sharkie said). I do not think that Williams have the resources to be competitive again in F1 since Geoff Willis left & next season will not be any difference...

You'll see..

[Becker4]

im sorry, i just dont agree. i only think bar can exist as long as its making some one money, and once that stops, so will BAR. david richards and geoff willis were brought in to make sure that doesn't happen. and how can minardi only be in it for the sponsorships? they need sponsorship desperatly, as does everyone, but with all the hardships they have faced, to still be working at it and trying to stay in should earn them even more respect, not less. they obvioulsy aren't doing well with sponsors, with all the title sponsors they are going through. they can be making them much money. look at it this way, if BAR was in the szme type of trouble as minardi, they lost BAT and Honda, would they still be around? i doubt it. david richards would leave the team, and maybe go manage toyota or someone, and geoff willis would be hired back to some other top team, they're drivers would head off to better opportunities . . . . BAR has nothing to keep it going through troubles like that, where mclaren has dennis, and williams has frank and head. if you tell me that BAR would still be going, were they in minardis boat, im sorry but i just can't believe that. but i think that if it happened to williams, or to mclaren, they would just try and keep going.

[j4kwan]

s'okay, s'okay....now they've got my cars for Sato to burn up! har.


it would be really really really funny if JV lands a seat at BAR. Draaama!

[Becker4]

and im not against BAR, though these last few posts might give that impression, i have a huge amount of respect for all the guys who make it happen once they get the money. what geoff willis and david richards have done is simply incredible, and for that reason i am a fan of BAR. i just know that those really in control, those with the money, have a different motivation then the guys slugging away in the windtunnel and in the pits. that is why i would love to see DR buy BAR, then they WOULD have that loadstone they need to keep them going, not just in good times, but in bad. im sorry if ive pissed off any BAR fans, but that is my opinion

[sharkie17]

Becker, stop thinking like an American.

BAR is NOT in it for the money. For you to say it is like saying that Ferrari is in it to sell more road cars. (of course it help sell cars, but they are not in it just to sell cars) BAR, just like any other team is in it to win races and championship. Period. BAT just happens to provide the livery and the cash flow to make sure that happens. You also have to realize that sponsorship is main part of F1 racing, whether it be a engine supplier or an advertiser or a tobacco company.

Annnnnyhoo, this thread ISNT about BAR or some money grubbing rich tyrant.

this thread is about JB and his dishonorable action...

like i stated before, he should honor his contract and stick it out... (I dont care if JB wanted to drive for Williams since childhood. He signed the contract. Honor it! BTW, Becker, BAT IS a British company.)

[bernard]

I would just like to make a tiny addition about bar. The thing with BAR is that it is OWNED by a major company. It was not established by some racing fanatic. It was established to make money, just like Jaguar. The guys at Jaguar aren't even expecting world championships, that's too hard and costs too much, all they want is to boost their car sales, give them a bit more sporty image. And this is a fact acknowledged by many people. BAR is an investment from a segment of trade that seems increasingly desperate; tobacco. They have cash to spend, and they look for ways to sponsor around the laws. Look at Marlboro and buying out the other sponsors from ferrari because putting tobacco labels on the cars becomes illegal.
That is the difference. BAR has some great personel, who surely are in it for the racing, but the whole team's existence depends on BAT. All BAT wants is some public exposure, as promoting tobacco has been made very hard.