Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[bill shoe]

I bet that at least half of the 6 Merc-engine cars will use only 3 engines for the season. Honda is getting much closer on power, but in terms of total package (power, fuel-econ/weight, reliability during races, grid penalties due to various failures and pre-emptive changes) Merc will be very hard to beat. Ferrari essentially matched Merc on total power last year but was out of the championship picture by the last race due to not matching the total package.

I really like Wazari's earlier comment about Honda doing some aggressive new combustion strategy because that would be the only way to get ahead of Merc. Too many comments from Ferrari and Renault describe how they hope to catch up, with no mention of seriously being better.

[etusch]

This might raise an eyebrow or two but I think the best placed teams for making 3 engines last are Ferrari engined....or.....Honda. (I know)

Mercedes have gone "new design" so there is the unknown and Renault ended last season with big reliability woes. Renault cannot stop pushing for more power so their engine development will introduce more risk whilst trying to solve last years issues.

Ferrari and Honda ended 2017 reliably and gone with evolutionary change.

If last season's reliability mean something for this season I think there is only mercedes to finish with lesser penalty.

[Wazari]

General rule of thumb for small displacement race ICE is 0.5 to 1.0% loss in power per 1000 km due to many of the reasons mentioned above.

Each race is 300 kms, so each race weekend maybe 600 kms. Total engine mileage for 7 weekends is about 4000 kms. By Wazari's rule-of-thumb that means the ICE looses 2-4% power over its life. This ICE degredation probably affects the H as well. So if 800 hp baseline from ICE and H, then probably looking at roughly 15-30 hp change over lifespan of ICE.

My best guess is that F1-level materials and tolerances reduce the degredation more than the F1-level stresses increase it. But still thinking everyone will be wanting new engines at Monza, etc. And of course the whole power unit will probably be more efficient early in its life...

Outside of Monaco, if all goes well in FP1, 2, 3 and qualifying plus the full race, teams typically plan for 750 kms.

[Craigy]

Outside of Monaco, if all goes well in FP1, 2, 3 and qualifying plus the full race, teams typically plan for 750 kms.

7 weekends * 750km = circa 5250km
24h Le Mans race distance record: 5410km (2010).

Obviously Le Mans is a race, so the PU is generally going to be under duress for all of the 24h race other than yellow flag periods or stoppages, but it's still illustrative of the type of durability required: F1 PUs in 2018 are almost being asked to do a grand endurance race distance already, just split over 7 events rather than one.

[McMika98]

General rule of thumb for small displacement race ICE is 0.5 to 1.0% loss in power per 1000 km due to many of the reasons mentioned above.

Each race is 300 kms, so each race weekend maybe 600 kms. Total engine mileage for 7 weekends is about 4000 kms. By Wazari's rule-of-thumb that means the ICE looses 2-4% power over its life. This ICE degredation probably affects the H as well. So if 800 hp baseline from ICE and H, then probably looking at roughly 15-30 hp change over lifespan of ICE.

My best guess is that F1-level materials and tolerances reduce the degredation more than the F1-level stresses increase it. But still thinking everyone will be wanting new engines at Monza, etc. And of course the whole power unit will probably be more efficient early in its life...

Outside of Monaco, if all goes well in FP1, 2, 3 and qualifying plus the full race, teams typically plan for 750 kms.

However FP1 and FP2 are now run on detuned state which has very little stress and wear on the engine. Hasegawa once stated that they could run engine forever at the cost of performance. So effectively its the few kilometres in quali and the full race distance that counts. Remember most of the blowouts Renault had were when they turned up the wick.

[PlatinumZealot]

Pssh.. I don't even care about reliability for 2018! give me powa and I will feel happy.

[carisi2k]

My bet is that everybody but the tight on budget teams will take an extra engine. Probably at Monza for Ferrari, the 3 Renault and Toro Rosso teams with the factory Mercedes maybe taking an engine at Singapore.

The honda sounds much better in the quick videos of the STR13 I heard then it ever did before. I still think that Red Bull should have committed to Honda this year especially with that tight body work and the Honda reliability looking good. Mind you the STR looks extremely bulky at the rear compared to the STR12 and especially the super slim RB14.

[McMika98]

The honda sounds much better in the quick videos of the STR13 I heard then it ever did before. I still think that Red Bull should have committed to Honda this year especially with that tight body work and the Honda reliability looking good. Mind you the STR looks extremely bulky at the rear compared to the STR12 and especially the super slim RB14.

The engine does sound better especially during braking. Didnt you say RedBull were working with Honda engineers throughout winter?

Both the Toro Rosso and Mclaren car so far appears to be from same chassis as last year. Kinda shocked Mclaren managed to keep the same intake and reduce the sidepod inlet. The Toro Rosso has the biggest intake that is befitting of a turbofan cowl and yet still have the same sized sidepods when others have reallly shrunk.One synergy of having works engine is the flexibilty to tailor the cooling to suit aero and vehicle dynamics. To me Ferrari have been very innovative in cooling options. I hope Wazari can clarify but it feels like this isnt a prority for Honda atm as they have bigger fish to catch.

[techman]

i had a pretty good guess that the air intakes would be big as compared to very tiny intake with mclaren. i believe honda did push for large intake having learnt lesssons from their ex partners how not to do things.

[McMika98]

i had a pretty good guess that the air intakes would be big as compared to very tiny intake with mclaren. i believe honda did push for large intake having learnt lesssons from their ex partners how not to do things.

If Mclaren can run the same intake on Renault and expect 950+hp then its the other way around sadly. Those intake on STR are quite something even though i also expected it to be larger. No way would an aerodynamicst approve it unless there are clawback from other fronts such as sidepods.

[1158]

Merc and Honda have a similar layout. I'm not shocked the TR has a large opening, just like the Merc.

We need to see some clear pics of the TR not moving on a wet track before we can draw any conclusions.

[techman]

If Mclaren can run the same intake on Renault and expect 950+hp then its the other way around sadly. Those intake on STR are quite something even though i also expected it to be larger. No way would an aerodynamicst approve it unless there are clawback from other fronts such as sidepods.

the question is can the renault engine package run with those tiny intakes. its was never done last year for the renault engine and this year its going to be a test for mclaren, we will find out in testing. even the renault team have bigger intakes to cool engine and other accessories. did the mclaren force their size zero on renault?

[1158]

McLaren said they were too late to make any requests and would go slightly conservative on the cooling. Not to mention Renault isn't really going to listen to much from their customer teams. They will have their own PU philosophy and will probably be less likely to listen to other ideas.

Remember RB hired Illien as a consultant for Renault and Renault ignored his advice. Of course that was when RB and Renault were fighting, but I'm not sure McLaren coming to them with ideas would get a much different reaction.

[carisi2k]

The opening on the TR isn't what is worrying me. It still looks like last years car which really means that the STR13 is a development mule. The cowling behind the opening looks extremely bulky and so maybe they look like they might be dialing in improvements over the year to up the aero and engine power.

So long as the engine improvement is there then it really doesn't matter what happens in 2018 for STR Honda. I'd expect 2019 RB15 development mechanical parts to find there way on to the str13 throughout 2018. All in all it sounds like it isn't too far off the Renault in engine performance at the moment and it has lots of development to come throughout the year.

[etusch]

Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)