2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

[Singabule]

This year, the TR looks more like the RB.
Many pages that did an analysis said the same thing. Obviously there is a data transfer

They want to adopt 100% RB rear before get honda, abandon merc nose, and transfer 50 more RB engineer to create rear suspension and integrate honda PU. Even if no direct data transfer, 50 plus engineer from RBT answer that

[j.yank]

This year, the TR looks more like the RB.
Many pages that did an analysis said the same thing. Obviously there is a data transfer

They want to adopt 100% RB rear before get honda, abandon merc nose, and transfer 50 more RB engineer to create rear suspension and integrate honda PU. Even if no direct data transfer, 50 plus engineer from RBT answer that

Where did you get this information about the 50 plus engineers?

[Singabule]

This year, the TR looks more like the RB.
Many pages that did an analysis said the same thing. Obviously there is a data transfer

They want to adopt 100% RB rear before get honda, abandon merc nose, and transfer 50 more RB engineer to create rear suspension and integrate honda PU. Even if no direct data transfer, 50 plus engineer from RBT answer that

Where did you get this information about the 50 plus engineers?

I read somewhere, i will try to search it and Come back later.

[Talisman]

Not really. The teams don't develop their cars together and aren't allowed to share crucial data. Rules. Those cars aren't the same if even similar...

Is it against the rules to buy another PU (or 10) fit it (them) to a chassis and run it 24 hours a day in building 9?
Is it even against the rules to share that data?
It could even be an STR 13 in that facility. I don't believe there's anything illegal about it?

Why would they need to?

The same holding company owns both RBR and STR. It would not be too difficult to obtain characteristics of both the Renault and the Honda, in fact it would be utterly essential for designing components that are partly shared between the two teams like the gearbox.

It would be in Honda's interests (if not Renault's) for their information to be shared amongst the wider RBR company to make it easier for the latter to take a decision to dump Renaults for them for 2019. In fact since getting an RBR contract is the only way for Honda to reach the front of the grid I suggest Honda would have insisted upon it.

[Talisman]

STR contradicts it self alot regarding power...first Hartly said, Mclaren made a mistake and Honda has more power than Renault, then someone said Honda plans to catch Renault by mid-season

It not contradict, hartley says current honda has more power compared to 2017 renault, and some says renault have several more horses in their pocket in 2018 but need to confirm reliability first. James Key and Tost just played down their chance, its normal. Also, why mid season, because the deadline for RB to chose engine is May, and if RB technology is fully commit to join forces to develop honda unit, that will be huge boost. Now, there is split development between two engines integration, with less than 50% allocation to honda, and already reliable and drivable. Imagine at 100%. Plus, with honda Cash they can develop their chasis without worry to run out Cash, we could see spec B chasis with more efficient aero as well with smaller intakes and coolers

What Honda cash? I thought Honda had specifically ruled this out, in fact saving money this way (by not giving cash to the team they supplied) was one of the core components of the proposal made to the Honda board which was otherwise split between leaving F1 and moving to STR?

Hartley is talking about a gut feeling he has about the Honda compared to an engine he last drove four months ago, possibly in a detuned state for reliability purposes. I'd rather go with Key and Tost.

The most we can say about the Honda and the Renault is that they are roughly in the same ballpark with Renault likely slightly ahead. Both are far behind Ferrari and Mercedes.

The only reason people are comparing the Honda and the Renault is because of McLaren's choice of engine after they dumped Honda. On this I think Honda have already succeeded in making Woking regret their decision, the performance they've gained from swapping to Renault isn't worth the overall £80 million financial hit they've taken. If Renault (the team) have improved as much as I suspect they have McLaren have the added humiliation of potentially being the slowest of the Renault teams as well. Either way there is nothing there relevant for STR.

[godlameroso]

Honda is taking the 100 million it gave McLaren yearly and putting that money towards engine development, however new body work, while costly to us is a drop in the bucket for Honda. TR has already brought 3 front wings for testing this week. They would not have been able to do that without Honda, if nothing else, saving 15 million on engines/ season goes a long way to freeing up some budget for the chassis.

Honda wants to win, they don't want to trundle around the midfield, and if the engine is good, I'm sure Honda will help TR get their chassis in order. I fully expect Red Bull to run Honda engines next year, and if they could I imagine they'd switch this year.

[Talisman]

Honda is taking the 100 million it gave McLaren yearly and putting that money towards engine development, however new body work, while costly to us is a drop in the bucket for Honda. TR has already brought 3 front wings for testing this week. They would not have been able to do that without Honda, if nothing else, saving 15 million on engines/ season goes a long way to freeing up some budget for the chassis.

Honda wants to win, they don't want to trundle around the midfield, and if the engine is good, I'm sure Honda will help TR get their chassis in order. I fully expect Red Bull to run Honda engines next year, and if they could I imagine they'd switch this year.

Again I've seen no evidence that Honda have increased the engine development budget. I understand there have been staffing changes with more of an emphasis on those who have relevant experience to bring in from other parts of the Honda empire and with prior race engineering experience but from what I understand staff numbers are pretty much unchanged. The changes they have made over 2017 are aimed at making their current budget work more efficiently and competitively, not to increase it.

If Honda's only motivation was to win they would have a budget greater than Mercedes as that would be the simplest way of beating them. Yet they haven't even tried to match Mercedes and continually comment about how much smaller their budget and team are, around half that of Stuttgart in fact. That is despite the horrendous experiences they had in 2015, 2016 and 2017, all of which individually should have prompted the company to push more money towards F1 to turn things around (or pull out). Wazari has already made comments to this effect.

As for STR's budget, it wouldn't surprise me if switching to Honda has had no impact whatsoever on their budget depending on where the funding for the Renault customer units came from. If the Renaults were paid for by STR directly then yes, I can see that money freed up for the chassis. If however that money came directly from a Red Bull holding company that owns STR then no, I can see Red Bull simply pocketing that money leaving STR with the same budget as before. As I mentioned before we have not seen the kind of recruitment drive that goes on when a team comes across a significant budget rise.

I think we agree that an RBR supply is Honda's target here. In order to get this I think we also agree that Honda have to show their PU to be on a par with or better than the Renault. Making the STR chassis more competitive does nothing to help this because Red Bull will be able to pull the real data on the Honda PU to compare with their Renaults.

There are far far too many assumptions about Honda and STR funding. The reality is that there is no concrete evidence that either project has received more money than they had in 2017.

[Singabule]

Honda is taking the 100 million it gave McLaren yearly and putting that money towards engine development, however new body work, while costly to us is a drop in the bucket for Honda. TR has already brought 3 front wings for testing this week. They would not have been able to do that without Honda, if nothing else, saving 15 million on engines/ season goes a long way to freeing up some budget for the chassis.

Honda wants to win, they don't want to trundle around the midfield, and if the engine is good, I'm sure Honda will help TR get their chassis in order. I fully expect Red Bull to run Honda engines next year, and if they could I imagine they'd switch this year.

Again I've seen no evidence that Honda have increased the engine development budget. I understand there have been staffing changes with more of an emphasis on those who have relevant experience to bring in from other parts of the Honda empire and with prior race engineering experience but from what I understand staff numbers are pretty much unchanged. The changes they have made over 2017 are aimed at making their current budget work more efficiently and competitively, not to increase it.

If Honda's only motivation was to win they would have a budget greater than Mercedes as that would be the simplest way of beating them. Yet they haven't even tried to match Mercedes and continually comment about how much smaller their budget and team are, around half that of Stuttgart in fact. That is despite the horrendous experiences they had in 2015, 2016 and 2017, all of which individually should have prompted the company to push more money towards F1 to turn things around (or pull out). Wazari has already made comments to this effect.

As for STR's budget, it wouldn't surprise me if switching to Honda has had no impact whatsoever on their budget depending on where the funding for the Renault customer units came from. If the Renaults were paid for by STR directly then yes, I can see that money freed up for the chassis. If however that money came directly from a Red Bull holding company that owns STR then no, I can see Red Bull simply pocketing that money leaving STR with the same budget as before. As I mentioned before we have not seen the kind of recruitment drive that goes on when a team comes across a significant budget rise.

There are far far too many assumptions about Honda and STR funding. The reality is that there is no concrete evidence that either project has received more money than they had in 2017.

You cannot see the evidence from outside, unless you are RBT GL team. It is well known that RB shift their money in all of their operation. The money to TR is not Cash, but improved service from RBT, access to honda infrastructure, and free engine. You will never know why STR head of aero resigned when STR not have to see their account balance at all. helmut Marco know the deals would benefit RBT overall. All of the RBT service is paid by Honda as 'third party consultant'. Got it?

[Talisman]

You cannot see the evidence from outside, unless you are RBT GL team. It is well known that RB shift their money in all of their operation. The money to TR is not Cash, but improved service from RBT, access to honda infrastructure, and free engine. You will never know why STR head of aero resigned when STR not have to see their account balance at all. helmut Marco know the deals would benefit RBT overall. All of the RBT service is paid by Honda as 'third party consultant'. Got it?

Access to Honda infrastructure is not for RBR to give. It is part and package of getting a works deal with Honda. As for RBT service being paid by Honda that still requires money from Honda which simply isn't forthcoming.

Perhaps it hasn't been reported in the Western press but Honda's board is not particularly passionate about F1. When it became clear that McLaren were moving elsewhere the board was divided between withdrawing entirely and finding another team to supply. The proponents of moving to STR threw in massive savings for the F1 project by scrapping the money they used to give to McLaren and making the PU more competitive on the same budget by changing but not increasing staffing levels. You and others are assuming this money wasn't scrapped but moved over to STR. Had this been the case the board would simply have scrapped the F1 project and Honda would have been out.

You don't get it about the free engines. Who pays for the engines? STR? Red Bull? A holding company that owns both? If the holding company paid for the Renaults in 2017 then they save money by getting free Hondas for 2018. What do they do with that saved money? You are assuming they give it to STR and they might have. They might also have pocketed it and reduced Red Bull's overall F1 spend which is plausible since STR already costs them a lot of money whereas Red Bull racing pays for itself with sponsorship and prize money.

If a team gets a significant amount of fresh money they recruit in numbers. This becomes obvious looking at the Autosport jobs section and other advertising outlets. We are not talking individuals here. McLaren went on a recruitment binge in 2014 and other teams noticed staff moving to Woking as they increased their budget with Honda's arrival. There has been no such trend with STR.

Nor is there any incentive for Honda to put money into STR.

Rather than patronising comments try to present evidence. Most of us want to see Honda and STR improve but there is no place for wishful thinking.

[Singabule]

You cannot see the evidence from outside, unless you are RBT GL team. It is well known that RB shift their money in all of their operation. The money to TR is not Cash, but improved service from RBT, access to honda infrastructure, and free engine. You will never know why STR head of aero resigned when STR not have to see their account balance at all. helmut Marco know the deals would benefit RBT overall. All of the RBT service is paid by Honda as 'third party consultant'. Got it?

Access to Honda infrastructure is not for RBR to give. It is part and package of getting a works deal with Honda.

You don't get it about the free engines. Who pays for the engines? STR? Red Bull? A holding company that owns both? If the holding company paid for the Renaults in 2017 then they save money by getting free Hondas for 2018. What do they do with that saved money? You are assuming they give it to STR and they might have. They might also have pocketed it and reduced Red Bull's overall F1 spend which is plausible since STR already costs them a lot of money whereas Red Bull racing pays for itself with sponsorship and prize money.

If a team gets a significant amount of fresh money they recruit in numbers. This becomes obvious looking at the Autosport jobs section and other advertising outlets. We are not talking individuals here. McLaren went on a recruitment binge in 2014 and other teams noticed staff moving to Woking as they increased their budget with Honda's arrival. There has been no such trend with STR.

Nor is there any incentive for Honda to put money into STR.

Rather than patronising comments try to present evidence. Most of us want to see Honda and STR improve but there is no place for wishful thinking.

One thing that i failed to understand is why STR want to increase their size when they can receive service from their interco vendor. Honda and RBT is based on UK and it is not related if STR did not hire people could be translated as there is no improvement on human resources. You could find honda advertisement for their UK Base and also RB technology (not RBR) advertisement not so long ago. This is also inline with Hasegawa quotation that honda is improving the external consultant and inline with James key quotation that this year car PU is a join forces STR gearbox, RBT Electronic (and integration, battery, wiring, etc) and Honda. The results is already seen, so why should hire more? And for the budget wise, do you suggesting that honda is already cut (not moving) the budget? To save money? Well if that is true, how can marko justify loss of sainz to renault?

[Talisman]

The Milton Keynes Honda base is mainly logistical and supportive in nature. Since the number of teams Honda supplies hasn't changed there is no need to increase staffing there, though IIRC when the Sauber deal was briefly alive they were recruiting with a view to supplying two teams for 2018.

Honda R/D is entirely in Japan. Any external consultants would be working with the Japanese operation, not the British. Also consultancy services don't contribute to an organisations staff number.

Were the STR gearbox internals not always shared with RBR?

STR might share a lot with RBR but according to regulations must develop a substantial part of the car themselves. The aero and mechanicals for instance. If they had more money why wouldn't they try to bolster such departments? Thats what McLaren did in 2014 and Renault in 2017.

[etusch]

Not really. The teams don't develop their cars together and aren't allowed to share crucial data. Rules. Those cars aren't the same if even similar...

Is it against the rules to buy another PU (or 10) fit it (them) to a chassis and run it 24 hours a day in building 9?
Is it even against the rules to share that data?
It could even be an STR 13 in that facility. I don't believe there's anything illegal about it?

Why would they need to?

The same holding company owns both RBR and STR. It would not be too difficult to obtain characteristics of both the Renault and the Honda, in fact it would be utterly essential for designing components that are partly shared between the two teams like the gearbox.

It would be in Honda's interests (if not Renault's) for their information to be shared amongst the wider RBR company to make it easier for the latter to take a decision to dump Renaults for them for 2019. In fact since getting an RBR contract is the only way for Honda to reach the front of the grid I suggest Honda would have insisted upon it.

If Honda really want victory may come Toro Rosso too but redbull is easy and cheaper way

[godlameroso]

Honda is taking the 100 million it gave McLaren yearly and putting that money towards engine development, however new body work, while costly to us is a drop in the bucket for Honda. TR has already brought 3 front wings for testing this week. They would not have been able to do that without Honda, if nothing else, saving 15 million on engines/ season goes a long way to freeing up some budget for the chassis.

Honda wants to win, they don't want to trundle around the midfield, and if the engine is good, I'm sure Honda will help TR get their chassis in order. I fully expect Red Bull to run Honda engines next year, and if they could I imagine they'd switch this year.

Again I've seen no evidence that Honda have increased the engine development budget. I understand there have been staffing changes with more of an emphasis on those who have relevant experience to bring in from other parts of the Honda empire and with prior race engineering experience but from what I understand staff numbers are pretty much unchanged. The changes they have made over 2017 are aimed at making their current budget work more efficiently and competitively, not to increase it.

If Honda's only motivation was to win they would have a budget greater than Mercedes as that would be the simplest way of beating them. Yet they haven't even tried to match Mercedes and continually comment about how much smaller their budget and team are, around half that of Stuttgart in fact. That is despite the horrendous experiences they had in 2015, 2016 and 2017, all of which individually should have prompted the company to push more money towards F1 to turn things around (or pull out). Wazari has already made comments to this effect.

As for STR's budget, it wouldn't surprise me if switching to Honda has had no impact whatsoever on their budget depending on where the funding for the Renault customer units came from. If the Renaults were paid for by STR directly then yes, I can see that money freed up for the chassis. If however that money came directly from a Red Bull holding company that owns STR then no, I can see Red Bull simply pocketing that money leaving STR with the same budget as before. As I mentioned before we have not seen the kind of recruitment drive that goes on when a team comes across a significant budget rise.

I think we agree that an RBR supply is Honda's target here. In order to get this I think we also agree that Honda have to show their PU to be on a par with or better than the Renault. Making the STR chassis more competitive does nothing to help this because Red Bull will be able to pull the real data on the Honda PU to compare with their Renaults.

There are far far too many assumptions about Honda and STR funding. The reality is that there is no concrete evidence that either project has received more money than they had in 2017.

Honda was providing McLaren 100 million euros per year on top of the engines and driver's salary, if you cut ties with McLaren where do you spend the money that has already been budgeted to you? It's not a stretch of the imagination to think they'd invest it in their engine program. There's plenty of evidence, even from Honda themselves.

[godlameroso]

Is it against the rules to buy another PU (or 10) fit it (them) to a chassis and run it 24 hours a day in building 9?
Is it even against the rules to share that data?
It could even be an STR 13 in that facility. I don't believe there's anything illegal about it?

Why would they need to?

The same holding company owns both RBR and STR. It would not be too difficult to obtain characteristics of both the Renault and the Honda, in fact it would be utterly essential for designing components that are partly shared between the two teams like the gearbox.

It would be in Honda's interests (if not Renault's) for their information to be shared amongst the wider RBR company to make it easier for the latter to take a decision to dump Renaults for them for 2019. In fact since getting an RBR contract is the only way for Honda to reach the front of the grid I suggest Honda would have insisted upon it.

If Honda really want victory may come Toro Rosso too but redbull is easy and cheaper way

I don't think it would be easy or cheaper, Red Bull is more high maintenance than the junior team, but probably easier to work with than McLaren.

[Talisman]

Honda is taking the 100 million it gave McLaren yearly and putting that money towards engine development, however new body work, while costly to us is a drop in the bucket for Honda. TR has already brought 3 front wings for testing this week. They would not have been able to do that without Honda, if nothing else, saving 15 million on engines/ season goes a long way to freeing up some budget for the chassis.

Honda wants to win, they don't want to trundle around the midfield, and if the engine is good, I'm sure Honda will help TR get their chassis in order. I fully expect Red Bull to run Honda engines next year, and if they could I imagine they'd switch this year.

Again I've seen no evidence that Honda have increased the engine development budget. I understand there have been staffing changes with more of an emphasis on those who have relevant experience to bring in from other parts of the Honda empire and with prior race engineering experience but from what I understand staff numbers are pretty much unchanged. The changes they have made over 2017 are aimed at making their current budget work more efficiently and competitively, not to increase it.

If Honda's only motivation was to win they would have a budget greater than Mercedes as that would be the simplest way of beating them. Yet they haven't even tried to match Mercedes and continually comment about how much smaller their budget and team are, around half that of Stuttgart in fact. That is despite the horrendous experiences they had in 2015, 2016 and 2017, all of which individually should have prompted the company to push more money towards F1 to turn things around (or pull out). Wazari has already made comments to this effect.

As for STR's budget, it wouldn't surprise me if switching to Honda has had no impact whatsoever on their budget depending on where the funding for the Renault customer units came from. If the Renaults were paid for by STR directly then yes, I can see that money freed up for the chassis. If however that money came directly from a Red Bull holding company that owns STR then no, I can see Red Bull simply pocketing that money leaving STR with the same budget as before. As I mentioned before we have not seen the kind of recruitment drive that goes on when a team comes across a significant budget rise.

I think we agree that an RBR supply is Honda's target here. In order to get this I think we also agree that Honda have to show their PU to be on a par with or better than the Renault. Making the STR chassis more competitive does nothing to help this because Red Bull will be able to pull the real data on the Honda PU to compare with their Renaults.

There are far far too many assumptions about Honda and STR funding. The reality is that there is no concrete evidence that either project has received more money than they had in 2017.

Honda was providing McLaren 100 million euros per year on top of the engines and driver's salary, if you cut ties with McLaren where do you spend the money that has already been budgeted to you? It's not a stretch of the imagination to think they'd invest it in their engine program. There's plenty of evidence, even from Honda themselves.

Keep it in the bank. As I’ve repeated several times it’s only by scrapping that payment that honda’s board agreed to stay in F1 with STR.

The evidence from Honda says exactly that they have decided not to spend more money on the engine. Nothing I’ve seen says otherwise. Check wazari’s posts too, he says the same.