Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

[f@natic]

Just a question to those in the know.

Looking at a direct shot from front on,it is clear that the inside edges of the mirrors are directly in line with the base of the halo.

So what would the normal effect of a mirror be on this,where the air moves around the mirror and then onwards to the base of the halo vs directing this airflow,or at least some part of it away from the halo?

[CBeck113]

If these mirrors are designed to reduce drag- than automatically it will have a positive effect on the top sidepod inlet?

So win-win?

I agree, and I'll take this one step further - I believe that the mirrors may indeed help feed the top inlets, but only at low speeds, to help increase cooling under these conditions (remember how small the inlets are when looking from the front - the pressure delta inside the side pods decreases with speed, and could reach a critical level at lower speeds, and this is a rather complex solution for that). Since the slots around the mirror are quite small, the air will eventually "stall" (it will continue to flow, but will be saturated), and its functionality will deem the air flow improvement.

And now for a crazy idea: what if Ferrari mount the mirrors on the halo fairing (not the halo itself, that would be illegal), and actually duct the air through the fairing down the air box vial the opening on the inside? This could help stabilize the flow which is disturbed by the halo, but I'm not completely convinced that this would be effective enough for the effort.

[Just_a_fan]

The Ferrari's Top Entry Radiator Duct (TERD) alters the airflow over the sidepod and hence to the rear wing (and the top of the diffuser, to a degree). Most teams run devices on top of the sidepod (e.g. a wing-like structure /and/or VGs) to help air flow over the sidepod without separating - especially at the leading edge where the flow is being worked hard. The TERD prevents this system from being used for obvious reasons.

Normally, the mirrors will affect flow behind them to a degree - quite marked in some cases. See here how the mirror generates a vortex :

That vortex wouldn't help the TERD to entrain air in to the sidepod. So by bringing air through the mirror, Ferrari weaken the downstream effect of the mirror. The result is cleaner flow to the TERD as well as a minor reduction in drag from the mirror. The TERD benefits and the rear wing/diffuser upper surface both benefit too.

The idea that the mirror turns air in to the TERD is nonsensical when one looks at how much the flow would need to be turned.

[CBeck113]

The Ferrari's Top Entry Radiator Duct (TERD) alters the airflow over the sidepod and hence to the rear wing (and the top of the diffuser, to a degree). Most teams run devices on top of the sidepod (e.g. a wing-like structure /and/or VGs) to help air flow over the sidepod without separating - especially at the leading edge where the flow is being worked hard. The TERD prevents this system from being used for obvious reasons.

Normally, the mirrors will affect flow behind them to a degree - quite marked in some cases. See here how the mirror generates a vortex :https://www.totalsimulation.co.uk/wp-co ... 68x389.png

That vortex wouldn't help the TERD to entrain air in to the sidepod. So by bringing air through the mirror, Ferrari weaken the downstream effect of the mirror. The result is cleaner flow to the TERD as well as a minor reduction in drag from the mirror. The TERD benefits and the rear wing/diffuser upper surface both benefit too.

The idea that the mirror turns air in to the TERD is nonsensical when one looks at how much the flow would need to be turned.

But this is a solid mirror with no aero fairings, and you're implying that the same exact flow effect will result from the flow-through design with additional fairings, which is therefore wrong, or they wouldn't have bothered.

[Just_a_fan]

But this is a solid mirror with no aero fairings, and you're implying that the same exact flow effect will result from the flow-through design with additional fairings, which is therefore wrong, or they wouldn't have bothered.

No, I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that the mirror affects airflow over the sidepod. The TERD affects airflow over the sidepod. The usual structures used by teams to control flow over the sidepod are not available to Ferrari because of the TERD. Both the TERD and mirror have obviously, therefore, been designed to limit the effect that they have over that flow and thus limit any problematic flow structures reaching the rear wing / diffuser upper surface.

Airflow in to the radiators is not the problem being solved here, quality of flow to the rear wing / diffuser upper surface is.

[f1316]

I’m suddenly reminded that Gary Anderson keeps mentioning how the Ferrari retains rake on the straight - unlike the other cars...

Let’s say for a second there is ducting in the mirrors, and this is in order to blow the rear wing....

I really can't see that, it would leave the rear wing blown under braking at the end of the straight, you'd lose far more time with lack of grip and instability there than you'd ever get close to gaining from the straightline speed. I also doubt you'd have the pressure/flow available to blow the rear wing after all the turns through the mirror mounts, etc.

Yes, fair point. I guess this is the difference between this and the Red Bull blown beam wing in 2012 - that was linked to DRS so immediately disabled when you hit the brakes.

By that same token though, wouldn’t that have also been the problem with DRD? Even with the fluidic switch, at point of braking, the wing would still be blown and flow wouldn’t reattach until you were sufficiently slowed? Perhaps that is indeed one of the reasons it was dropped by everyone.

In any case, a fanciful notion; I still think there may be more to the Ferrari’s continued rake on the straights than pure cautiousness re new suspension controls.

[mmred]

I think they can be setting the suspension system by checking the max load on straight with unaltered rake
Then they will soften the suspensions or implement wathever devil idea other teams already showed last year and I am not necessarily talking only about red bull in the last races here, whose advantage wasn't just front axle lowering due to steer activation

[Vanja #66]

Try observing mirror fairing as tiny sidepod, and mirror glass with inner fairing as the radiator. Principle and situation-wise they are identical. Size doesn't matter.

Sorry, but those can't be compared Completely different effects of fluid mechanics govern the airflow through radiator core and mirror glass is a solid material, no flow trough it. Even in terms of inlet/outlet sizes (from pictures, I am 99% certain mirror fairing has convergent channels, and radiator intakes are divergent, like diffusers) these are, from the pictures I can see, incomparable.

Unless ducted, mirrors would choke at ridiculously low speeds.

If you would like, I can run some CFD simulations with approximate geometry of the wing mirror. Before that, we could discuss the simplification of model in terms of upstream and downstream bodywork we chose to neglect as something without influence on major flow structures around and trough mirror fairing. Honestly, I am not convinced they choke at any speed, just like wings don't. But we can check, if not 100% accurate, at least more accurate than theoretical discussion

[CBeck113]

But this is a solid mirror with no aero fairings, and you're implying that the same exact flow effect will result from the flow-through design with additional fairings, which is therefore wrong, or they wouldn't have bothered.

No, I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that the mirror affects airflow over the sidepod. The TERD affects airflow over the sidepod. The usual structures used by teams to control flow over the sidepod are not available to Ferrari because of the TERD. Both the TERD and mirror have obviously, therefore, been designed to limit the effect that they have over that flow and thus limit any problematic flow structures reaching the rear wing / diffuser upper surface.

Airflow in to the radiators is not the problem being solved here, quality of flow to the rear wing / diffuser upper surface is.

Alright, but the TERD actually improves air flow over the side pod by eliminating the boundary layer over its width, reducing the effective length over the side pod. And yes, I do agree that the change is primarily there to help control air flow over the side pod, especially at normal speeds. BUT, the down-turned lip on the top of the mirror sends a different message to me, and that is what I want to find out.

[zac510]

Hopefully we get another wet weather test day this week and we can see any brown traces around the TERD.

[manchild]

Try observing mirror fairing as tiny sidepod, and mirror glass with inner fairing as the radiator. Principle and situation-wise they are identical. Size doesn't matter.

Sorry, but those can't be compared Completely different effects of fluid mechanics govern the airflow through radiator core and mirror glass is a solid material, no flow trough it. Even in terms of inlet/outlet sizes (from pictures, I am 99% certain mirror fairing has convergent channels, and radiator intakes are divergent, like diffusers) these are, from the pictures I can see, incomparable.

No, no... you misunderstood what I wanted to say.
I had in mind existance of space between the mirror glass and the outer fairing, in a way to compare it's insufficient capacity with insufficient capacity of radiator.

If there wasn't a duct, and if they wanted to make the air only to enter and exit the mirror without choking on low speeds, they'd make several times smaller inlet. The proportion of it and the design of inner cone fairing tells me that it is designed to have greatest possible intake capacity, in order to feed the duct with as much air as possible, and to choke at high speeds.

If you're going to do a CFD, make it as simpe as it gets. A rectangular box with rounded front, facing the air stream at 90°, with stem/branch but without a car at all.

Than try the same with ducting trough stem/branch of approximate size and ducting towards sidepod. Both on identical speeds, let's say 100kph 200kph and 300kph. I estimate that without ducting they'll choke at 50-100kph.

[ringo]

The upper inlets have little to do with the mirrors.
The mirror design is targeting the rear wing only for drag reduction and end plate efficiency purposes.

The mirror is too close longitudinally to the top inlet and too far vertically. I wouldn't really push the theory about the mirror putting air into the inlets as it's not necessary, the inlet already has a turning vane putting down wash into it.

The mirror has a very aerodynamically neutral shape, so much so i dont see much of an aggressive down wash coming off of it that would turn into the sidepod inlets, neither at low or high speed.

So again, i see the design simply to reduce eddies in the wake of the mirror and to improve flow in that region above the sidepods and subsequently the rear wing plane and endplates. That's about it, i stand corrected if this opinion is wrong.

[PlatinumZealot]

Get it out of your brains that the mirror is feeding the top radiator inlets OK!

[Hail22]

https://img.f1today.eu/x/full/photos/5a ... 9a51b8.jpg

[Morteza]

Via @F1debrief