General Honda F1 Topic

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etusch
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A year ago, McLaren-Honda spent the Barcelona weeks of testing in the garage most of the time. Twelve months later, the new Honda team Toro Rosso unwound the most kilometers of all participants. How did Honda get the curve? And what to expect from the Japanese?

Do you remember the test drives a year ago? Since McLaren Honda managed 878 miles on 8 test days. Honda about matching products on heated five engines. The McLaren spent most of the time in the garage. A year later, the Honda V6 turbo is in a Toro Rosso, and McLaren now drives with Renault power. Although a winter break in Barcelona in the first week of testing only 3 days allowed regular test operation and also because the conditions were not optimal, there was already a winner. And his name was Honda.
Pierre Gasly and Brendon Hartley have completed 1,508 kilometers in the Toro Rosso-Honda. Almost as much as McLarenHere's about matching products on 2017 in twice as much time. There was not a problem in the drive at the test gallop of the new partners. The Honda six-cylinder ran and ran and ran. As if the defect series of the last three years never existed.

But why did the Japanese suddenly get the turn? Actually, Honda was already at the end of 2016 on a good path. But then three things happened. Honda changed half of the engineering team before the 2017 season, wanted to reach for the stars with a new engine concept and was forced by McLaren to some conversions, which turned out to be fatal in retrospect. For example, a too large compressor and a motor control, which has thermally stressed the engine too much.

Honda has a free hand at Toro Rosso. The priority over the winter was to ensure reliability. Therefore, Honda built the current engine on the foundation of the previous year's engine. And for the past nine months has also been receiving external expertise. It is no secret that Ilmor helps the Japanese in the combustion process.

In addition, they said goodbye to McLaren's special wishes. With the success that Toro Rosso set the distance record of the first week of testing with 322 laps. Just ahead of Mercedes with 306 laps and Ferrari on with 298 laps. Incidentally, McLaren ranks seventh with a 260-lap Renault engine.

The Honda V6 has also gained moderate power. The big boost should come with the first expansion stage. At Red Bull, it is expected that Honda will ride on par with Renault. For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier.

Toro Rosso is now a factory team
From Honda come not only free house engines, but also a development grant. Toro Rosso is now almost a factory team. For the first time since entering Formula One in 2006. Team Principal Franz Tost is pleased: "We have the engine exclusively. This is a great opportunity for a team for us. "Key adds," It's also a big responsibility. "

The engineers have been in the conversion of the car after the many changes of engine partners in the last four years. The Honda solution was ready in July. That's how you could think about the design office in Faenza. The Honda V6 Turbo was known to be similar in its architecture to the Mercedes engine. Compressor and turbine are separated, the MGU-H sits on a shaft in between.

From September, there was clarity. After a two-day crash course with Honda engineers, the already-designed chassis on its rear side was adapted to the new engine and a new gearbox was built. "We already had later engine decisions and thus more difficult tasks," smiles Key. The end product, the new Toro Rosso STR13, the Englishman would rewrite as: "An evolution in front, completely new behind."

Intercultural technology exchange
Red Bull Junior Team has to get used to the new partner. The distance to Sakura is greater than to Viry-Chatillon. The language barrier is bigger. Maybe it helps that English is the second language for both the Italians at Toro Rosso and for the Japanese. To better understand the culture of the Japanese, Toro Rosso took tutoring lessons on how to work best with a Japanese corporation.

They are not afraid of continuing the breakdown series in Faenza. "I'm convinced that Honda has the capacity and the knowledge to develop the engine that we can get where we want to go," Tost says. And where is that? "The top three teams are their own league. From the 4th place there is an open fight. Our goal must be to land as far forward as possible in this big midfield. "
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/

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HPD
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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It's funny when the media talk about "Miracle", "Magic". Seeing Honda work properly and with good performance.

Marko already said. Some people made Honda look bad..
In F1 there is no miracle

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Zynerji
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Toro Rosso is now a factory team
From Honda come not only free house engines, but also a development grant.
So, STR is getting development money straight from Honda...

I may have to revise my thoughts on what they may achieve with that engine/chassis/development budget... If they get the same 100M as McLaren did, and have way more freedom and a better working relationship, this fairy tale might just come true.

johnny comelately
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Thunder wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 15:43
Nonserviam85 wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 15:03
I still cannot understand why people are stuck with max HP figures. It is widely acknowledged by now that the Honda PU is lighter and with a lower center of gravity compared to Renault (closest competitor)
To this Date still no one came up with Proof for that Theory. So i don't think "widely acknowledged" is the right Term.
Is the below statement right or wrong then? :
" For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier."
from https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/

Nonserviam85
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johnny comelately wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 01:57
Thunder wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 15:43
Nonserviam85 wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 15:03
I still cannot understand why people are stuck with max HP figures. It is widely acknowledged by now that the Honda PU is lighter and with a lower center of gravity compared to Renault (closest competitor)
To this Date still no one came up with Proof for that Theory. So i don't think "widely acknowledged" is the right Term.
Is the below statement right or wrong then? :
" For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier."
from https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/
This is the statement I had in mind when writing my original post

techman
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Is the below statement right or wrong then? :
" For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier."
from https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/
i think the compact nature of the honda engine unlike renault meant the integration was better. which is good hopefully the developements come thick and fast

makecry
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techman wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 03:49
Is the below statement right or wrong then? :
" For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier."
from https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/
i think the compact nature of the honda engine unlike renault meant the integration was better. which is good hopefully the developements come thick and fast
Why do I sense hypocrisy in this post? Just some days back McLaren was being blamed for "forcing" Honda to make a compact PU but right now the compact PU is being praised. =D>

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Zynerji
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makecry wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:00
techman wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 03:49
Is the below statement right or wrong then? :
" For Toro Rosso, the compact engine from the Sakura development center proved a blessing. "That made integration into the chassis easier. If we had to change from Honda to Renault, it would have been more difficult, "reveals Chief Technology Officer James Key. In other words, the drive unit from Renault is bigger and heavier."
from https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ssig-test/
i think the compact nature of the honda engine unlike renault meant the integration was better. which is good hopefully the developements come thick and fast
Why do I sense hypocrisy in this post? Just some days back McLaren was being blamed for "forcing" Honda to make a compact PU but right now the compact PU is being praised. =D>
STR allowing Honda to increase the size by a few CM is quoted in the article as THE reason its more powerful and reliable. Something McLaren KNEW was necessary, but rejected.

makecry
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Zynerji wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:04
makecry wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:00
techman wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 03:49


i think the compact nature of the honda engine unlike renault meant the integration was better. which is good hopefully the developements come thick and fast
Why do I sense hypocrisy in this post? Just some days back McLaren was being blamed for "forcing" Honda to make a compact PU but right now the compact PU is being praised. =D>
STR allowing Honda to increase the size by a few CM is quoted in the article as THE reason its more powerful and reliable. Something McLaren KNEW was necessary, but rejected.
We don't know that. C'mon lol, stop fabricating BS. We don't know what happened behind the closed doors. Not going to point fingers at anyone. Honda coming good is good for the sport and sport right now needs a competitive team and if not McLaren Honda, RedBull Honda would do!
Last edited by makecry on 07 Mar 2018, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

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RZS10
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Zynerji wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:04

STR allowing Honda to increase the size by a few CM is quoted in the article as THE reason its more powerful and reliable. Something McLaren KNEW was necessary, but rejected.
What ... ?

The AMuS article does not mention any changes in size ... not a single word ... so you pretty much pulled that out of your arse ... lol

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Zynerji
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RZS10 wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:22
Zynerji wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:04

STR allowing Honda to increase the size by a few CM is quoted in the article as THE reason its more powerful and reliable. Something McLaren KNEW was necessary, but rejected.
What ... ?

The AMuS article does not mention any changes in size ... not a single word ... so you pretty much pulled that out of your arse ... lol
Im actually looking for it now. I was going to add the quote after reading that, but it isnt in that article. There must be another, because it says they "added a few cm". Ill dig it up.
Last edited by Zynerji on 07 Mar 2018, 05:32, edited 1 time in total.

Squid
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It's from this article. Quotes by James Key.

"If we've got a particular aero issue we want to address and there's a bit of engine in the way of that and there's more development [potential] from that on the chassis side, or if there's a particular engine thing they are keen to see through and it's a slight compromise for the chassis, we will see it through.

"It's on a case-by-case basis. It does require a lot of co-ordination, but it's not an issue because it's for good reason."

For evidence of this, it's understood that Honda was allowed to elongate the V6 engine by a couple of centimetres to improve performance and reliability, which Toro Rosso was happy to accommodate.

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Zynerji
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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RZS10 wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:22
Zynerji wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:04

STR allowing Honda to increase the size by a few CM is quoted in the article as THE reason its more powerful and reliable. Something McLaren KNEW was necessary, but rejected.
What ... ?

The AMuS article does not mention any changes in size ... not a single word ... so you pretty much pulled that out of your arse ... lol
makecry wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 04:07
We don't know that. C'mon lol, stop fabricating BS. We don't know what happened behind the closed doors. Not going to point fingers at anyone. Honda coming good is good for the sport and sport right now needs a competitive team and if not McLaren Honda, RedBull Honda would do!
Squid wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 05:26
It's from this article. Quotes by James Key.

"If we've got a particular aero issue we want to address and there's a bit of engine in the way of that and there's more development [potential] from that on the chassis side, or if there's a particular engine thing they are keen to see through and it's a slight compromise for the chassis, we will see it through.

"It's on a case-by-case basis. It does require a lot of co-ordination, but it's not an issue because it's for good reason."

For evidence of this, it's understood that Honda was allowed to elongate the V6 engine by a couple of centimetres to improve performance and reliability, which Toro Rosso was happy to accommodate.
Thank you!

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Redragon
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HPD wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 00:04
It's funny when the media talk about "Miracle", "Magic". Seeing Honda work properly and with good performance.

Marko already said. Some people made Honda look bad..
In F1 there is no miracle
So right, there is not place to hide in F1, time will always show the truth

hasika
hasika
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https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2018 ... 5-rcg-moto

In the first test week,Honda brought a PU which mainly focused on the reliability.This week,Honda bring a new PU which is planned for Melbourne if its ok.

As the other teams,Toro Rosso didnt do any qualifying simulation yesterday.They did some race simulation to see how the car works in different fuel load and how the power unit works when the drivers pushs in different level.We can see how the STR13 performances when they uesd the qualifying mode to do a time attack in the last 3 test days.
Last edited by hasika on 07 Mar 2018, 08:05, edited 1 time in total.