How would a current car F2007 fare against an FW14/FW15

[Nikko2]

The 2008 sesaon will likely be the end of another era. With substantial rule changes on the way for 2009.

It leads me to wonder how a F2007(current in form car) would fare against the peaks of other eras.

I am thinking along the lines of the FW14-FW16. Which dominated in the era before "driver aids" bit the dust.

Coulthard said in the latest F1 racing magazine that the FW17 was still the best car he has ever driven wide track, slicks, 3.5litre engine and no traction control. and that car had "driver aids" removed compared to previous models.

So the question is if Williams could dust off an old car would it be able to hold a candle to a F2007 and if not how so?

[mx_tifoso]

Welcome to F1Technical 'Nikko2',

First of all, the current Ferrari is the F2008.

A good and realistic way to compare the two cars would be to compare lap times on circuits that have not been altered or changed in any way (although to find unchanged circuits may be a bit difficult, but worth trying anyways). Since real life comparisons would be quite difficult to arrange, especially from the conservative Scuderias' side.

Good luck!

And we look forward to your developments and contributions...

[Nikko2]

Thx for the welcome.

I dont think any circuits have gone unchanged in that time so makes comparisons difficult.

I did read somewhere once that Ferrari have laptimes for all sorts of F1 and road cars from their Fiorano test track. Perhaps this private track has not undergone significant change.

Wiki reveals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiorano_Circuit

Car Record Driver Date Note
Ferrari F2004 0'55.999 Germany Michael Schumacher 2004
Ferrari F2003 0'56.33 Germany Michael Schumacher 2003
Ferrari 248 F1 0'57.099 Brazil Felipe Massa 2006
Ferrari F2005 0'57.146 Germany Michael Schumacher 2005
Ferrari F2002 0'57.476 Germany Michael Schumacher 2002
Ferrari F2007 0'58.366 Brazil Felipe Massa 2007
Ferrari F310B 0'59.00 Germany Michael Schumacher 1997

It looks to me like the F310B that closely competed against the FW19 is only 0.6-7s quicker than the F2007 car. I could specualte that the earlier Williams cars may indeed have been quicker and maybe quicker than todays cars.

However I wonder if they would have been quicker than the F2004 that is some 3s quicker than the F310B.

Anyone with F1 experience out there that can comment on which cars have been the fastest.

[Ciro Pabón]

Tracks that haven't changed since 1994.... mmmmm. Let's see.

The info comes from my private database, so I can be wrong. I looked at the worksheet I have for the tracks, no particular order. I just checked for the "old" tracks in the current calendar, so if you have any other candidate track, I can look for its history.

Anyway, I don't find other sources, so...

Btw, I'm not into research mood, you'll have to look for the lap times, preferably for the same driver, I'd say:

- Ile Notre Dame, no. It changed in 1996 and then in 2001.
- Monaco, no. It changed in 1997 and 2003.
- Magny Cours, well, it did not change since 1992 until 2002. Maybe you could use the figures there, but for F2002 (or whatever the name).
- Silverstone, no. It changed in 1996 and again in 1997.
- Monza, no. Changes in 1995 and 2000.
- Mugello, yes, last change was in 1969, but no FW14 ran on it.
- Fiorano, yes, last change in 1991, but, again, no FW14.
- Albert Park, yes! Last change in 1958! (wow). Unfortunately, the first F1 race was in 1996... Anyway, there you have it.
- Catalunya, no way. Changes in 1995, 2001 and 2004.
- Hockenheim, nope. Changes in 1994 and 2002.
- Nürburgring, no. Changes in 1995 and 2002.
- Spa, well, again it did not change since 1981 until 2001. Then changes in 2002 and 2004. Maybe you could use it in the same way as Magny Cours.

Hope this helps, and welcome, Nikko. Please, give us some figures, I'm curious about the results.

Btw, I've seen a "performance index" for F1 cars, I could try to look for it, but I have to ask a friend in Australia (Chaparral, help me here, if you still post around). I believe the index was compiled in a book, it's not in "the Internets" and it's old and subjective, it goes since 1950 until 2002 or something like that, but... I'm mighty busy, so I don't promess anything...

[WhiteBlue]

I would think that Monaco did not change significantly in terms of lap times. Did they do anything but change the pits and a bit of cosmetics to the barriers where Wendlinger crashed 1994? Perhaps swimming pool?

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, the changes at Monte Carlo are these (again, these are my "private" notes, but I'm a little "into tracks", for decades now):

- 1973: I won't explain the changes this year, they're too much, even for me.

- 1976: Anthony Noghes (old Gazomètre) and Saint Devote got a much shorter radius.

- 1986: the old Chicane du Port was made much "curvier" and renamed Nouvelle Chicane (astounding imagination for names... )

- 1997: the straight between Tabac and Piscine was made shorter (maybe 100 or 200 meters shorter) and the entrance curve to Piscine changed to a larger radius: the exit of that curve used to be straight, it was made a long curve.

Of course, the next straight between the two curves (entrance and exit) at Piscine was made longer to compensate for the shortening of the previous straight. Loews was renamed Grand Hotel (but it did not change its geometry).

- 2003: what used to be a long curve between Piscine and Rascasse was straightened up. The exit curve of Piscine got a much shorter radius. The pit lane was made much longer, it used to exit into the track right after the finish line and was moved to exit after Saint Devote. However, as WhiteBlue mentions, this last pit change shouldn't influence the lap times.

Or so I think, but I don't believe anyone will help me here... most of you're too young.

I have maps for Monaco since 1929 (including the not so known karting track) in a really, really thick folder, but I should scan them. Maybe some time next week, if someone asks for them. Actually, I should do something with all the info I have on track history. Maybe the best thing would be to write a testament leaving them to some track fan (if I find one).

[WhiteBlue]

so the swimming pool mod is the only one that is relevant for a 97 vs 2008 comparison? do we have an estimate how much that influenced the times?

oops, forget it. I thought FW17 was a 97 model. just checked and realised it was the 95.

[Nikko2]

Wow there is some in depth knoweldge on here. Very impressive Ciro.

I will go off and see that laptimes I can find for some of the tracks sugested.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, WhiteBlue, at least we have a base for what could be the first true comparison of lap times in Internet history, not taking in account resurfacing or something like that.

Actually, even if there were no resurfacing, the track will deteriorate in time. Not much, the ridiculously low weight load of racing cars don't even make tickles to the pavement, but seasonal changes, braking, aging of pavement material, eventual truck races and humidity will. I'm sure Nick_T could give us an estimate of roughness growth just by aging.

Thanks, Nikko2, but the strenght of this forum is the whole group, you included. In time, you also will be bored to death with my insistence in knowing well the tracks.

[WhiteBlue]

Wow there is some in depth knoweldge on here. Very impressive Ciro. ...

it would be wrong to call Ciro a highway man , but he certainly knows his ways around cycloids, radii and other track design issues. visit his track page and be amazed!

http://www.geocities.com/ciroalbertopab ... os_eng.htm

[Belatti]

I have maps for Monaco since 1929 (including the not so known karting track) in a really, really thick folder, but I should scan them. Maybe some time next week, if someone asks for them. Actually, I should do something with all the info I have on track history. Maybe the best thing would be to write a testament leaving them to some track fan (if I find one).

Well, here I am! PM me if you need additional data for the testament
I have a decent library with F1 magazines and books since 1992 that would be glad to have new mates.

Regarding Monaco changes in 1997, I remember the entrance curve to Piscine not only changed to a larger radius, but also the barriers were moved and replaced with kerbs. That makes that part much faster and also it helps the risk of touching the barrier decreases.

[Ciro Pabón]

Some info on the subject:

Suzuka since 1992:
1992 Nigel Mansell (Williams FW14B Renault) 1:37.360
1993 Alain Prost (Williams FW15C Renault) 1:37.154
1994 Michael Schumacher (Benetton B194 Ford) 1:37.209
1995 Michael Schumacher (Benetton B195 Renault) 1:38.023
1996 Jacques Villeneuve (Williams FW18 Renault) 1:38.909
1997 Jacques Villeneuve (Williams FW19 Renault) 1:36.071
1998 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F300) 1:36.293

Magny Cours since 1992:
1992 Nigel Mansell (Williams FW14B Renault) 1:13.864
1993 Damon Hill (Williams FW15C Renault) 1:14.382
1994 Damon Hill (Williams FW16 Renault) 1:16.282
1995 Damon Hill (Williams FW17 Renault) 1:17.225
1996 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F310) 1:15.989
1997 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F310B) 1:14.548
1998 Mika Hakkinen (McLaren MP4/13 Mercedes) 1:14.929

[Scotracer]

Some info on the subject:

Suzuka since 1992:
1992 Nigel Mansell (Williams FW14B Renault) 1:37.360
1993 Alain Prost (Williams FW15C Renault) 1:37.154
1994 Michael Schumacher (Benetton B194 Ford) 1:37.209
1995 Michael Schumacher (Benetton B195 Renault) 1:38.023
1996 Jacques Villeneuve (Williams FW18 Renault) 1:38.909
1997 Jacques Villeneuve (Williams FW19 Renault) 1:36.071
1998 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F300) 1:36.293

Magny Cours since 1992:
1992 Nigel Mansell (Williams FW14B Renault) 1:13.864
1993 Damon Hill (Williams FW15C Renault) 1:14.382
1994 Damon Hill (Williams FW16 Renault) 1:16.282
1995 Damon Hill (Williams FW17 Renault) 1:17.225
1996 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F310) 1:15.989
1997 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F310B) 1:14.548
1998 Mika Hakkinen (McLaren MP4/13 Mercedes) 1:14.929

Thanks for those, Ciro. Now if we compare the 1998 cars up to modern cars:

Using Malaysia (from 1999):

1999 Michael Shumacher (Ferrari F399) 1:40.267
2000 Mika Hakkinen (Mclaren MP4/15 Mercedes) 1:38.543
2001 Mika Hakkinen (Mclaren MP4/16 Mercedes) 1:40.962 (what's gone on here?)
2002 Juan Pablo Montoya (BMW Williams FW24) 1:38.049
2003 Michael Shumacher (Ferrari F2002B) 1:36.412
2004 Juan Pablo Montoya (BMW Williams FW26) 1:34.223
2005 Kimi Räikkönen (Mclaren MP4/20 Mercedes) 1:35.483
2006 Fernando Alonso (Renault R26) 1:34.803
2007 Lewis Hamilton (Mclaren MP4/22 Mercedes) 1:36.701
2008 Nick Heidfeld (BMW Sauber F1.08) 1:35.366

I think it's safe to say, the current cars are quicker than the early 90's cars and if next years cars are 1 seconds faster than currently...they may be the fastest F1 cars of all time, even with "only" 770-850BHP (including KERS)

[Rob W]

- Albert Park, yes! Last change in 1958! (wow). Unfortunately, the first F1 race was in 1996... Anyway, there you have it.

It's a park. The track was build for F1 using some of the existing park roads and adding different corners etc.

I've been there many times and am sure they've changed a couple of the tight corners at least once since they started.

Anyway. I saw something a while back about tire progressions since the 1980s and it said that the rubber is so much better now that a grooved tire from 2007 has far more grip than a slick from 1990. So, put slicks using today's rubber on a FW14/15 and it would be lightning quick I imagine - probably dangerously so.

R