Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[FightingHellPhish]

That smoking happens on every car.
Pull out the PCV on your street car and you will see the same thing.

Notice the smoking only happens at slow speeds. I am no F1 engine expert but likely the piston rings are made to work in certain load ranges. This is expected as the rings work pressure. The low cylinder pressures idling in the pitlane probably put the rings out of working range.

Ring gap opens and closes based on heat. More heat, less gap. Less heat, more gap. Thing is, there was a fine mist throughout. It just got better or worse based on load (heat). There would still be enough blow by to pressurize the crank case to a degree.

I doubt F1 engines use gas ports in the pistons as I would think they would get clogged fairly quickly with carbon.

[PhillipM]

Why would you think that? These things run very lean.

[FightingHellPhish]

"In the past"?

Seems not.
Q in Melbourne - clearly showed a prominent emission of misty vapours - issuing from the rear of the Ferrari,
when exiting the pit, a technical matter, to be sure..

If you were to disconnect the PCV system on any car and vent to atmo, you would see similar. the issue is larger on forced induction cars.

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

[FightingHellPhish]

Why would you think that? These things run very lean.

gas ports are very tiny holes VERY tiny and are not in the hottest part of the chamber. Essentially a thing that would be susceptible to clogging. Lean burn also means even more heat which means a requirement for even more ring gap.

[Tommy Cookers]

in the NA days the ring flutter rpm was a 'mustn't linger' rpm band within the working rpm range of some engines
one day an uninformed Mr Brundle lingered his Peugeot engine there (9000 rpm iirc) and it did a volcano impression

maybe these engines repeatedly transit a ring flutter band ?


lean burn means less heat - or rather, a lower gas temperature
and the surplus oxygen making potential deposits burn away rather than being deposited

[FightingHellPhish]

in the NA days the ring flutter rpm was a 'mustn't linger' rpm band within the working rpm range of some engines
one day an uninformed Mr Brundle lingered his Peugeot engine there (9000 rpm iirc) and it did a volcano impression

maybe these engines repeatedly transit a ring flutter band ?


lean burn means less heat - or rather, a lower gas temperature
and the surplus oxygen making potential deposits burn away rather than being deposited

Not in my experience with forced induction engines or any engines. Have always seen lean conditions (and timing depending on conditions) increase heat.

I would think what sounds like a resonance issue has been fixed since then. There are ring designs that have different edge shapes to prevent such a thing.

[Big Tea]

If you were to disconnect the PCV system on any car and vent to atmo, you would see similar. the issue is larger on forced induction cars.

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

How would the crank case pressure affect this now that it is vented to air?
Previously, was it actually slightly negative due to the extraction into the inlet air stream?
If so, could this now be the cause of the smoke from Ferrari?

[johnny comelately]

Why would you think that? These things run very lean.

gas ports are very tiny holes VERY tiny and are not in the hottest part of the chamber. Essentially a thing that would be susceptible to clogging. Lean burn also means even more heat which means a requirement for even more ring gap.

1mm to 1.5 mm with a nice little chamfer and the PCD is out of the boundary layer, they dont clog up

[johnny comelately]

in the NA days the ring flutter rpm was a 'mustn't linger' rpm band within the working rpm range of some engines
one day an uninformed Mr Brundle lingered his Peugeot engine there (9000 rpm iirc) and it did a volcano impression

maybe these engines repeatedly transit a ring flutter band ?


lean burn means less heat - or rather, a lower gas temperature
and the surplus oxygen making potential deposits burn away rather than being deposited

it seems to happen at idle and start up and last year on the grid revving up from idle (mercs), so maybe not ring flutter?
my thoughts about NO oil rings were that it would be possible with pressure difference management

[johnny comelately]

in the NA days the ring flutter rpm was a 'mustn't linger' rpm band within the working rpm range of some engines
one day an uninformed Mr Brundle lingered his Peugeot engine there (9000 rpm iirc) and it did a volcano impression

maybe these engines repeatedly transit a ring flutter band ?


lean burn means less heat - or rather, a lower gas temperature
and the surplus oxygen making potential deposits burn away rather than being deposited

Not in my experience with forced induction engines or any engines. Have always seen lean conditions (and timing depending on conditions) increase heat.

I would think what sounds like a resonance issue has been fixed since then. There are ring designs that have different edge shapes to prevent such a thing.

there is a thing called "Lean of Peak" where there is not enough fuel to produce the heats we are talking about

[Big Tea]

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

How would the crank case pressure affect this now that it is vented to air?
Previously, was it actually slightly negative due to the extraction into the inlet air stream?
If so, could this now be the cause of the smoke from Ferrari?

Oops, this was supposed to be on a post it to self. Please excuse. I am thick enough in reality without reinforcing the opinion.

[J.A.W.]

If you were to disconnect the PCV system on any car and vent to atmo, you would see similar. the issue is larger on forced induction cars.

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

Ah, no.. such high performance engines typically deliberately run negative pressure in the crankcase,
to minimise 'windage' power-losses from the recip machinery churning air-oil about..

[FightingHellPhish]

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

How would the crank case pressure affect this now that it is vented to air?
Previously, was it actually slightly negative due to the extraction into the inlet air stream?
If so, could this now be the cause of the smoke from Ferrari?

its combustion gasses in the crankcase plus a touch of burning oil.

the pressure would affect it like any other fluid flowing through a tube at varying pressures.

[FightingHellPhish]

Doubt it..

1stly, it is highly unlikely that forced induction F1 mills do not run at -ve pressure in the crankcase,
so 'blow-by' as such, which will normally be a sign of malfunctioning/worn-out internal sealing, is out..

Unless of course, it is a deliberate oil-mist consumption mechanism 'breathing' - at a low boost state..

('Blow-by' venting to the slipstream, while racing - has to be a 'probable cause' for a 'black flag' deal, no?)

but thats exactly whats happening. no piston ring setup has 0% blowby/leakdown. it is inevitable that chamber gasses leak into the crank case and pressurize it to a degree.

Ah, no.. such high performance engines typically deliberately run negative pressure in the crankcase,
to minimise 'windage' power-losses from the recip machinery churning air-oil about..

Not unless they are running a vacuum pump (or like the trick drag racers use and use a one way valve on the exhaust) or.. a pcv system connected to the Intake before the compressor (which is now banned in F1). Windage trays and crank scrapers do a lot for oil control but crank case gasses are still an issue especially with boosted applications. Combustion gasses, heat, and inevitable oil slinging and the like all contribute to it.

[J.A.W.]

Pressure evac pump AFAIK, but not 'active' PCV - now banned, as such..