Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Talisman]

Williams and Force India pace was not the same. So which was it?

Looking at the gaps, Hartley was roughly on the pace of Stroll. He was not on the pace of Ocon or Perez.

And he was slower than Charles LeClerc, a rookie in a Sauber.

So were the other cars damaged too?

How much damage did Hartley have?

How much time did it cost him?

It sounds much more like an excuse, rather than a reason.

He had a damaged floor.

You’re better than this wuzak, what’s your issue here?

[cyro_666]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor-f1-singapore-honda/honda-set-top-three-goal-with-new-partner-toro-rosso-idUKKCN1BQ2NX
Last year after singapore honda manager said that they aim top three this year with torro rosso.
Now, i don' t know what to say about that statement.
Seems like honda people aren't aware of task they have to do.

That was a bad translation from the conference. The actual words were that they want to eventually be in the top three. Japanese is hard to translate and magazines like to take words out of the context.

[etusch]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor ... KKCN1BQ2NX
Last year after singapore honda manager said that they aim top three this year with torro rosso.
Now, i don' t know what to say about that statement.
Seems like honda people aren't aware of task they have to do.

That was a bad translation from the conference. The actual words were that they want to eventually be in the top three. Japanese is hard to translate and magazines like to take words out of the context.

They were talking about being 3d as PU performance not whole car performance and that is same as saying we will pass renault

[wuzak]

So were the other cars damaged too?

How much damage did Hartley have?

How much time did it cost him?

It sounds much more like an excuse, rather than a reason.

He had a damaged floor.

You’re better than this wuzak, what’s your issue here?

Did he?

How did that happen. As far as I can tell, he didn't go off the track.

He had a flatspot, but that shouldn't damage the floor.

I just can't see how this was a positive race for Toro Rosso or Honda. They are still some way off.

[Talisman]

How much damage did Hartley have?

How much time did it cost him?

It sounds much more like an excuse, rather than a reason.

He had a damaged floor.

You’re better than this wuzak, what’s your issue here?

Did he?

How did that happen. As far as I can tell, he didn't go off the track.

He had a flatspot, but that shouldn't damage the floor.

I just can't see how this was a positive race for Toro Rosso or Honda. They are still some way off.

No idea, perhaps you should contact STR and ask them directly.

Was this particular race positive? Don’t think anyone is suggesting that, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable either to suggest that they could in other circumstances beat Williams, FI and Sauber which you seem to take issue with.

[Thunder18]

Honda have been working on this year's PU for quite a few months now and over the Winter they have mainly focused their efforts on reliability with a major power update on the side to come later in the year.

Why am I saying this? It's true that they had a reliability issue on the first GP and might even have additional ones later on, but discounting any progress without knowing what really caused the issue is puerile. At least wait till an official explanation is provided and for a few more races before starting to shoot them down.

I find this thread to be really entertaining when there's constructive arguments and theories but it's annoying when comments turn negative and destructive, trying to imply that Honda are somewhat incompetent and not up to the job.

For me, seeing Honda return to the sport after a 7 year hiatus in what is the most complex engine/PU era 1 year late, shows courage and a will to get back to their winning ways. In my books, that in itself shows what Honda are truly made of and their fighting spirit, which sets them apart from the competition in the auto making industry.

Does this excuse all the issues they had? Of course not, but at least they're not giving up and waiting for the new rules to see how they will suit them. So how about showing some more respect and encouragement to these guys and have some faith? Don't you think they have endured enough?

After all this is only year 2 with the new concept, which is being integrated in a new chassis, and whilst they might be running at the back, they're not exactly cut off from the midfield. So again, let's have some faith and wait till mid-season before coming to conclusions.

I have a genuine question for people here .

Ferrari had a major overhaul to their power unit a couple of years back, they had no major reliability issues. Mercedes this year says their PU is 90% new and they have had no issue, the PU is running like a clockwork.

Every single PU was a new concept back in 2014(and had had less development time than Honda has had since they got back) and no one was as bad as Honda has been w.r.t reliability or lagged so much compared to the competition. So why does this "new concept" come up all the time when every single time when Honda's situation is brought up? I mean I know they need time to iron out issues but I hope the might I am trying to make is clear.

In actual fact the formula for the engine layout was set back as far as 2011, so iirc Mercedes were working since 2012 before implementation of these units, then the ban on testing came into force which limited the amount of on track running and forced Honda to do their testing on track in races. So into year two for this current engine layout and they're a midfield runner, while Renault are still taking flack from Redbull because the can't get back to where they were prior to the introduction of these complex units.

Ferrari and Mercedes are a factory outfit. Customer teams had no say in what engine configuration they purchased but the McLaren Honda project was a joint effort and we know how that turned out.

[ringo]

All that talk about Mclaren making a mistake by switching can be put to bed.
With only 3 PU per year, the engine makers simply cannot have issues like this case with the MGUH and put it down to being a one off failure.
Each of the 3 PU should go under extremely high level of inspection and approval before they are released.
I am not sure what happened between testing and now, but it smells of detuning during testing to get some miles in.

Honda need to take a road car approach to the reliability and back away from the on the limit designs it employed to reduce the weight of the PU. This failure is unacceptable, and i am not trying to be negative. Had it been a formula where you have a PU for 2 races it wouldnt have been so bad.

[godlameroso]

It's easier to take an aggressive development approach with backmarkers, the only place you can go is up. We still don't know what exactly was damaged, although when you see smoke like that it's usually terminal in an F1 car. I still don't think it's a big deal in the overall scheme of things. Let's see how they get on in the next few races.

[Thunder18]

Renault had a turbo failure with lots of smoke in testing with McLaren, it did not require a PU change. Gaslys' engine was running when he got back to the pits, so it might not be a complete PU failure, rumours of a turbo change, due to Mguh failure.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I have a genuine question for people here .

Ferrari had a major overhaul to their power unit a couple of years back, they had no major reliability issues. Mercedes this year says their PU is 90% new and they have had no issue, the PU is running like a clockwork.

Every single PU was a new concept back in 2014(and had had less development time than Honda has had since they got back) and no one was as bad as Honda has been w.r.t reliability or lagged so much compared to the competition. So why does this "new concept" come up all the time when every single time when Honda's situation is brought up? I mean I know they need time to iron out issues but I hope the might I am trying to make is clear.

The PU changes Ferrari and Merc have done are most likely subtle tweaks - a coating here, a lightening pocket there, a material change, etc. Sure from a part number change point of view it might sound like a lot, but the overall engine concept has probably remained unchanged.

Honda had to take the turbo out of the vee, lengthen the shaft and redesign everything around it. Such extensive architectural changes always higher associated risks.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Renault had a turbo failure with lots of smoke in testing with McLaren, it did not require a PU change. Gaslys' engine was running when he got back to the pits, so it might not be a complete PU failure, rumours of a turbo change, due to Mguh failure.

It depends on many factors, if debris get ingested into cylinders or make it into the oil and end up damaging bearings then the whole thing has to go. I suppose the engine would have been borescoped and the oil OES-ed by now so we should hear soon.

[Talisman]

Renault had a turbo failure with lots of smoke in testing with McLaren, it did not require a PU change. Gaslys' engine was running when he got back to the pits, so it might not be a complete PU failure, rumours of a turbo change, due to Mguh failure.

I hope you're right but Honda appears to be extremely conservative, understandably so given they only have one team to supply compared to three for everyone else. They appear to stop running at the slightest anomaly and replace units at the drop of a hat so I can't see them taking the risk and merely replacing the blown part.

It would be interesting to find out if the TC and MGUH are combined like last year and have to be replaced together

[PlatinumZealot]

The ICE sounding OK on Gasly cruise to the pits. You could tell he wasn't building boost, but the engine had a fairly smooth sound to it. I will stick my neck out and say the ICE internals are reusable.

[J.A.W.]

Was there any report - on the odour given off by the smoke?

Like if it was an emission from fried electrical componentry, hydraulic/trans, or a burning engine lube,type of smell?

[muramasa]

rumours of a turbo change, due to Mguh failure.

Don't know what that is but that's 100% false because Tanabe said they would send the power unit back to Sakura for investigation in the post race interview (from which you can just deduce why that is false or easy technical guess anyone can make out of known facts ie mgu-h hardware failure/breakage).

To elaborate: the PU should arrive at Sakura on Monday, and they cannot just open up the PU if they want to reuse it because all components are sealed, so it wont be that easy and quick to check and identify if ICE is fine or not etc and the extent of damage etc by Wedsnesday. Even if that's possible there is no way such info would escape from Sakura anyway. I would say only mgu-h swap, others might say ICE is damaged too by metal bits, or just maintenance component damaged so all components usable, etc, just 4-5 people say different things and someone will definitely get it right.

I understand why crave for info but there is no facts in rumors etc. Expecting facts in rumors is like expecting to find gems and cash in a bush or on the street.