Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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All I hope is that Max will be taken down from his regulation proposal position. He is ruining the sport with his environmental concerns. F1 is a form of entertainment, first and foremost and where it's heading I will stop watching it all together.

If 1.3-1.5L 4-cyl turbo engines are introduced in 2011, F1 will die. It'll be game over. At least 50% of the pull of F1 cars at the track is the screaming, beautiful engine tones. A whiny Turbo with a 10,000rpm limit would just sound awful, along the lines of a Formula Palmer Audi. Ugh, stop it Max...you really are ruining the sport.

If those rules become finalised, I will have had my fill. The sport would have neither the engineering draw (heavily regulated and limited aerodynamics as well as engines) nor the spectacle as they would sound the same as a bunch of kids cruising around town in their modified Hondas and probably look even more ridiculous than they will in 2009.

/rant.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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mcdenife wrote:Whiteblue wrote:
The interested public has received confirmation that the publication of Mosleys eccentric sex life was part of a power play as had been suspected right from the beginnings.
If by confirmation you are refering to Max's letter then sure Bernies letter clarifying issues is confirmation of the opposite. so question, why is Max's a fact (as implied by you)but not Bernies?
the letter war confirms very nicely that the old double act of Max/Bernie has broken down and that is proof enough for me that Bernie will find another stooge soon. take it as opinion but many people will bank on it.
mcdenife wrote:whiteblue wrote:
The other important aspect in the scandal Mr. Ecclestone has engineered is the reliability of the two men who are pitched against each other in the case. Ecclestone has no respect for human rights, democratic rules and honesty in business.
Mosley's statements on the other hand since the scandal broke loose can be checked against the facts and not a single time has he tried to mislead someone about the facts of the case.
What statements can be checked as fact other than that the NOTW did not make up the story? According to you, it seems Max is the only one telling the truth or the one who has been honest in all this sordid story.
I'm referring to the fact that he has been under surveillance. It was confirmed by the published fact that the license plate of the the car used to film him outside the Chelsea basement flat was established by CCTV. how would you call a video observation from a car but surveillance.

next take the statements about the German Zena Stones. Her role in the language issue is confirmd by her own web site confirming that she likes all her plays in German.

Mosley's statement of the Nazi connotation is also consistent with the later emergence of the details of the uniforms and prisoner costumes. they were definetely not Nazi. the SS never used horizontally striped clothes.
mcdenife wrote: Saward makes a very valid and reasoned argument. You cannot nbreak an egg and Max has compounded things further by refusing to resign. This more than anything else shows the contempt he has for the organisation he represents.
I have shown quite clearly that Saward makes a reasoned argument which isn't valid. I'm not going to show that again. Mosley hasn't compounded things. He has probably done the FIA a big favour by frustrating the strategies of his opponents of which Bernie is still suspected to be the main player who pulls the puppet strings.
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
I'm referring to the fact that he has been under surveillance. It was confirmed by the published fact that the license plate of the the car used to film him outside the Chelsea basement flat was established by CCTV. how would you call a video observation from a car but surveillance.
That a license plate of the car used to film him was taken by cctv confirms this was the car that took the film to where ever it was taken but not that there was surveillance. Not that it really matters but we only have yours and Max's assertion that it was surveillance. Anything else is pure speculation. It seems Max (and his supporters) would like this to be the case in the hope that it will detract from the real issue and muddy the waters somewhat. That is an insult. Max thought Monaco being his power base (or domain if youwish) was the place to show and prove he still has support) but the last grandprix there has shown that Max now lacks the credibility and respect to lead this organisation. Max is not being 'boycotted' because his privacy has been 'supposedly' breached and worse yet, he (and his supporters) have shown they lack any sence or are blind or have shown the grossest naivetty ever not to recognise this. Max claims he wants to finish some negotiaions with the CRH (or is it CHR?).....yada yada yada whatever. Well it very simple, One has to be dim to not see he has brought the organisation into disrepute and Monaco has shown he is the last person anyone wants to negotiate with. It's so obvious even a blind man can see it.

Donskar said it best
Mosley may see nothing wrong with sado-masochistic orgies but a large number of other people on the planet do not think this is something they need or want to know about.
The point is this; this large number of people can't UNKNOW what they already know.

WhiteBlue wrote:
I have shown quite clearly that Saward makes a reasoned argument which isn't valid.
You have shown nothing, not with reasoning like this:
Sado masochistic sexuality isn't different to homosexuality, group sex, oral sex or any other form of legal sexual behavior in the UK.
If I were gay, I would be very offended. It is naive in the extreme to think this has anything to do with the legality rather than the morality of his actions. Sado masochist sexual behaviour is very different to homosexuality. The latter can be described as 'sexuality' but not the former and neither can oral or group sex (not this century anyway). Regardless I will try to explain; this has absolutely nothing to do with Mr Mosley's sexuality (or even sado masochistic sex per se). There would not be an issue if Max was gay. There would be if he (as President of the FIA) was caught on film having sado masochistic sex with 5 male prostitutes despite having a long term gay partner.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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mcdenife wrote:WhiteBlue wrote:
I'm referring to the fact that he has been under surveillance. It was confirmed by the published fact that the license plate of the the car used to film him outside the Chelsea basement flat was established by CCTV. how would you call a video observation from a car but surveillance.
That a license plate of the car used to film him was taken by cctv confirms this was the car that took the film to where ever it was taken but not that there was surveillance. Not that it really matters but we only have yours and Max's assertion that it was surveillance. Anything else is pure speculation. ...

WhiteBlue wrote:
I have shown quite clearly that Saward makes a reasoned argument which isn't valid.
You have shown nothing, not with reasoning like this:
Sado masochistic sexuality isn't different to homosexuality, group sex, oral sex or any other form of legal sexual behavior in the UK.
If I were gay, I would be very offended. It is naive in the extreme to think this has anything to do with the legality rather than the morality of his actions. ....
AMS published a report that the outside shot in the NoTW video was made from a car. that car was filmed by a CCTV camera and the license plate is now documented for use at a court. Just by observing the angle of the outside shot in the video it is clear that the camera wasn't mounted on the premises but where a surveillance car would typically be parked. Allan Jones pointed out that obvious give away for the set up. Considering left hand driving in the UK one can even make an educated guess that the shot was made through the wind screen.

Please explain why you think that homosexuality is different to sado masochism between consenting adults in terms of morality. You admit yourself that it isn't different in terms of legality. The only difference in my view is that it can be easier used to discriminate against those who practise it like Mosley. isn't that hipocracy?
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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I neither know nor care who AMS/Allan Jones is/are or what they found or pointed out. Neither do I care what educated guesses they have made. Aside from being irrelevant, them, their guesses (educated or otherwise) amount to didley squat, and prove a big fat nothing in great scheme of things. Not that it matters, but mounting stings to sell news is what the tabloids do as Sven, Grobler, Fashanu, to name just a few, will tell you. The difference between what happened to these guys and Mosley is this; they were really set-up. Max was not. That is why, surveillance or not, few care and those who do, do so for the sole reason of shifting the focus. Max should (must) go. He's past his sell by date, he cannot perform his presidential duties (whatever they are) after this. Simple as.
Please explain why you think that homosexuality is different to sado masochism between consenting adults in terms of morality.
I neither understand or see the relevance of this question. However I reiterate; there would not be an issue if Max (President of the FIA) was gay. There would still not be an issue if gay Max was caught on film (I cant imagine why anyone would go to the trouble), having sex (SM or not) with his gay partner. But there would be if gay Max President of the FIA) was CAUGHT ON FILM having sex (SM or not) with 5 "rent boys", despite having a long term gay partner. Hope this clarifies things.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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WhiteBlue wrote:Please explain why you think that homosexuality is different to sado masochism between consenting adults in terms of morality.
Well, I understand that it is impossible to read this whole thread (and why would we? :)). You yourself ask for a moral (instead of an ethic) answer. Morals (latin: mores) means the customs of the country, while ethics means the ideal behaviour of any human being, at least for me. So, in terms of the law of the land you're wrong.

Simple: in the UK sadomasochism is illegal, even among consenting adults. Please, do not nag me, I don't make the laws, we already lost a member because he was incensed by this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Spanner

I quote myself in some page of this thread:

...in the words of Lord Justice Temple, in a split 3-2 decission:
I am not prepared to invent a defence of consent for sadomasochistic encounters which breed and glorify cruelty [...]. Society is entitled and bound to protect itself against a cult of violence. Pleasure derived from the infliction of pain is an evil thing. Cruelty is uncivilized.
(R v Brown (1993) 2 All ER 75)
=D>

As you can imagine, the persons sentenced for S&M (to 4 years in jail, if I remember well) took the case to the European Court. The Court said:
The present case was judged by the European Court to have fallen within the sovereign scope of the UK Government's right to determine its legality, and human rights legislation would not overrule this.

... the amount of physical or psychological harm that the law allows between any two people, even consenting adults, is to be determined by the State the individuals live in
(Laskard, Jaggard and Brown vs United Kingdom)
So, the allegations of Mr. Mosley, a less than optimum lawyer, ehem, about doing nothing illegal, don't hold water. So, the argument that the limits are "blurry" is incompetent, from the legal technical point of view. QED.

Max, if he were treated as a regular briton, should be in jail.

Besides, a post by Lawrence at Grand Prix, priceless:
According to court papers: "The revelation of the Claimant's [Mosley] most intimate sexual fantasies was seriously demeaning and humiliating."


"Demeaning and humiliating"? I kind of thought that was the purpose of S&M... especially the parts where they were checking him for lice and whipping him until he cried.

Seems like NOTW just improved the "demeaning and humiliating" part of the experience for him. They should send him a bill.
:lol:
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Interesting research, Ciro! I would not have bothered to dig that deep into the legal system. We certainly can learn something from it.

I still think that in general SM isn't illegal in Europe and in the UK. The law of England and Wales according to your sources punishes afflicting serious bodily harm and mentions branding and comparable acts. serious in this context seems to constitute considerable health risk such as infection from branding wounds.

The European Court:
The legal rationale for the decisions was broadly speaking as follows:

(UK courts) A person does not have the legal ability to consent to receive an act which will seriously harm them, such as branding or other intense activities of a sadomasochistic nature.
I understand from the NoTW publication that these people were into humiliation and pain by spanking, bondage and wipping. Although there was a report of a wound on Mosley the participants seemed all in good health when they were drinking tea at the end of the SM party. So it appears that the legal requirement for a crime of serious bodily harm by assault on Mosley by one of the mistresses isn't met.

Your conclusion that Mosley should be in jail for spanking or whipping the "prisoner" girls Leia and JD is also a misinterpretation of the law in my view. There is no report that one of those girls was wounded let alone seriously wounded.

If the conditions of punishable acts were met don't you think that there would be enough interested parties to take action and make sure he gets send to jail? From my experience with the public in the UK I would strongly expect hundreds of individuals to come forward and demand punishment. Many Brits love to see their criminals do time at her majesties pleasure to miss such an opportunity.

I do not claim that I know as much of the law as a lawyer but I have studied the principles of criminal law. One universal principle is an exact definition of what constitutes a punishable crime. those criteria have to be met completely and exactly by the actions of the accused. It appears that the punishment in the Spanner case was not based on criminal law but on case law.

to make the case law applicable in the Mosley case one would have to show that the serious harm done to Mosley was comparable to what was punished in the spanner case. If at all successfull it would probably only apply to the mistress who reportedly wounded Mosley.

Fazit: Mosley was not breaking the law.

Of course he is still unsuitable for FIA president for many people but it is up to the membership to decide about an immediate removal next week or letting him finish his term. It will be interesting to see the decision. If they decide to let him continue there must be a lot of concern about Ecclestones actions.
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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mcdenife wrote:... There would still not be an issue if gay Max was caught on film (I cant imagine why anyone would go to the trouble), having sex (SM or not) with his gay partner. But there would be if gay Max President of the FIA) was CAUGHT ON FILM having sex (SM or not) with 5 "rent boys", despite having a long term gay partner. Hope this clarifies things.
Yes, I can understand where you are coming from. So in your view the commercial and multiple subject issue is relevant for someone in a long term relationship.

I do not share that view. I would not applaude such behavior but it would fall into the range of things which I ignore when I get aware of it in a private capacity.

It would be difficult to say what I would decide if I were a judge, a company CEO or a member of the FIA EGM. In such a case the view of the membership or the well being of the organization would determine my decision.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20407.html
Twenty-four FIA clubs in 22 countries have signed a letter to FIA President Max Mosley in response to his recent letter to the FIA club presidents. The clubs involved represent around 85% of the total membership of the FIA, based on motorist members, but they control only around 25% of the votes at the General Assembly. The letter demands that Mosley give "an immediate agreement" to step down.
this sounds like a pretty good reason to agree to step down. Mosley should respect the vote of the representatives of the member majority. on the other hand the FIA should not be without a president in that time. the best would be an agreement to step down as soon as his successor is elected. it would focus the FIA on the election process and prevent a vacuum of power that could be abused by certain parties. a pity that he did not agree to such a compromise.
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Ciro Pabón
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WhiteBlue wrote:... There is no report that one of those girls was wounded let alone seriously wounded.

...

to make the case law applicable in the Mosley case one would have to show that the serious harm done to Mosley was comparable to what was punished in the spanner case. If at all successfull it would probably only apply to the mistress who reportedly wounded Mosley.
Good defense, certainly better than the one stated by P.O.L., our "lost member". In any case, you switched "your case" from consent to harm, now that consent is clearly not accepted in UK.

Your honor, ;) I'm not a lawyer, either, but it seems to me you're confusing GBH (grievous bodily harm) with ABH (actual bodily harm). Reading about it I find this:

"It has long been accepted that ABH includes any hurt or injury that interferes with the health or comfort of the victim, and which is more than transient or trifling."

Examples of ABH include (in appellation, it's true) cutting a pony tail and minor cuts, like the ones you get from a whip, which from my naive legal point of view causes hurt and interferes with comfort.

Also, you do not need to have bad intentions: for example, to show that ABH occurred, “...it is not necessary to show that Parmenter intended bodily harm; if he intended or was reckless as to the assault, and the actual bodily harm was a reasonably foreseeable result (whether or not it was or should have been foreseen by Parmenter himself), that is sufficient.” DPP v Parmenter

It's really hard to argue that it's not a "reasonably foreseeable result" to get minor cuts and bruises from whipping! :)

Anyway, the hundreds of citizens you foresee suing Mosley (and anybody just wishing some notoriety could try, including his "many political enemies", me included) will not appear, given the efforts and money Mr. Mosley will probably spend in sueing anybody related to the case and the offended attitude that Mr. Mosley has displayed until now.

I still wonder which will be the line of defense of NOTW, but probably their defense team (or some F1 fan who is a lawyer in UK) could give us a better explanation.

On a different issue, I was able to locate the chapter on FIA statutes about their integrants:

FIA foundation CODE OF CONDUCT OF TRUSTESS:
INTEGRITY

FIA Foundation’s trustees should:

• not place themselves under any financial or other obligation to outside individuals or
organisations that might seek to influence them in the performance of their roles;
avoid any appearance of improper behaviour, as well as avoiding actual impropriety;
• avoid accepting gifts and hospitality that might reasonably be thought to influence their judgement.
This is a more moral position on the issue, one used by Mosley himself many times against his opponents. I've even read this somewhat extreme position: This is a man who presides over an organisation that punishes people for transgressions. It is therefore relevant whether or not he is a sadist, even in his private life.

I won't comment too much on the issue of "plac(ing) themselves under any financial or other obligation to outside individuals"... ;) An investigation on the financial records of Mr. Mosley could have been a clear thing to do for his heavy "political enemies", if they really exist. Heck, if I could, I'd do it, but I'm not "heavy". ;) The rumours are too strong about this, do not forget that the Presidency of FIA is not a paid position.

About NOTW case, it seems they're toasted. Even in the first deposition, the judge implied that breach of privacy has occurred.

Against the importance of privacy, there is the issue of a right that is just as important and that is the right to freedom of speech and a free press. The two sides of this coin have to work together with responsibility. Under American law, not aplicable, true, Mosley's rights to privacy are severely curtailed in his position as public persona.

When Max Mosley decided to take libel action against the Sunday Times and, moreover, it's columnist Martin Brundle over an article he wrote pointing to double standards within FIA he resorted to bullying. This is the same Max Mosley that reportedly told ITV that Brundle was not good enough to be a commentator on their F1 broadcasts.

When somebody takes legal action against a newspaper for an article that does not paint him in a nice light then we have trouble. A free press is the cornerstone of democracy and needs to be protected as much as any rights. Max Mosley can be seen as nothing more than a bully and as with all bullies it is most satisfactory to see him taken down a peg or two.

In my opinion, NOTW was naive. I would have published the story (without pictures or films) and allow Mosley to deny it. Then, if denied, they could have caught him in a "legal vice" in the terminology of briton lawyers, and it would have been proper and probably legal to publish the pictures and the clips.
Ciro

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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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BBC has a story on yet more countries calling for Mad Max to go..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 425422.stm
BWP
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:... There is no report that one of those girls was wounded let alone seriously wounded.

...

to make the case law applicable in the Mosley case one would have to show that the serious harm done to Mosley was comparable to what was punished in the spanner case. If at all successfull it would probably only apply to the mistress who reportedly wounded Mosley.
Good defense, certainly better than the one stated by P.O.L., our "lost member". In any case, you switched "your case" from consent to harm, now that consent is clearly not accepted in UK.

Your honor, ;) I'm not a lawyer, either, but it seems to me you're confusing GBH (grievous bodily harm) with ABH (actual bodily harm)....
Ciro, I am capable of learning and you certainly gave us something to learn about the particular case law in the UK, which is a bit unusual.

I am actually not mixing up GBH and ABH in this case. We are not talking codified law which uses such concepts. There is only to my knowledge (thanks for digging it up) the European court decision. It is their ruling which demands "serious harm". I just apply common sense to the interpretation.

generally SM seems to be legal in the UK. there is certainly a very lively scene there. when I researched the participants of the party I noticed that the UK has an endless list of mistresses providing services and many of them are using clear names. so the police could easily take notorious players like Northern Spanking into custody and have them convicted if spanking and a bit of pain were illegal.

Having studied the NoTW publication of the SM romp I would be very carefull to characterise Mosley as a sadist. He is definetly switching between dominant and devote behavior. I find it unlikely that a switcher would go on to do serious damage to a person with whom he is going to reverse roles in the next hour. this psychological profile seems to be significantly different to a sick sadist who would commit any cruelty regardless of legality to get his kicks. some people have described Mosley in such a way and I don't think it is credible.

A pitty that he did not do the November 2008 deal. that would have been a good way out of the mess for the FIA.
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Ciro Pabón
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Well, he certainly reverses roles between Brundle and Ecclestone, too... ;)

The quotes I gave about ABH vs GBH are in the british law. The European Court AFAIK, simply stated that human rights could not interfere with the law of the country in regards to what constitutes violence.

Me thinks Mosley is not a good father, nor husband, nor he is in love with his wife nor his children. I agree those are not prerequisites for the position he holds, and nobody is asking me how I behave, but let me tell you I'm a faithful husband and I love my wife, I would never think of putting my children under that circumstances. I wonder why it's so hard to find a guy in this very same position. Also, it seems generosity is not a prerequisite either, until we have a more democratic organization, one that gives their integrants less wealthy lives.

Furthermore, those same character failures, which most of us have (I'm not better than anyone here, I know some of my limitations), are what have taken him to preside over one of the most sad epochs of FIA, an organization that seems sold to the best bidder.

The man has no character: if he had one, I would bother attacking it.

The attacks on Mosley are really attacks on the revengeful character and greedy management of FOMA, and that's the reason why most people here is somewhat disturbed or at least surprised by what seems to be a defense of him. He fvcked up, and, as we say in spanish: "those who sow winds, harvest tempests". Not that it matters to me: I love a good, reasoned argument, where everybody is conscious that "there are no winners, only smarter people after all it's settled". ;)

I mentioned FOMA so I don't have to mention his architect. Many people say loudly that this organization has robbed the sport from the clubs. Those who can remember what happened to Ballestre (a bureaucrat, true), cannot forget nor forgive the way the sport has gone down, merchantilistic as few, in an age when merchantilism is the norm and the Olympic spirit has lost its meaning. Mosley has a lot to pay, he has offended too many, and I wonder if his favors, so amply rewarded to others during his tenure, will be enough to keep him away from more public scandals, once he submerge himself in the oblivion.

Now, if after June 3 he keeps his position, many of us will be strongly disappointed. We know FIA has to offer his head, as St. Jhon the Baptist's. We wonder which will be the mechanisms for his removal, and over all, if the power base has changed a little. At least a little, sigh, at least for PR.

The lack of change in the horizon is discomforting for people like colombians, used to fight a web of lies from left and right, and bunches of criminals who argue they're not. When you're under mafia attacks, trying to rule the majority, you learn a little about capitalist barons. I positively know that some people, nonwithstanding circumstances, fight them all their lifes, with a pen and a few jokes. Those brave souls are the ones criminals and rascals fear the most.
Ciro

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Ciro Pabón wrote:.... The attacks on Mosley are really attacks on the revengeful character and greedy management of FOMA, and that's the reason why most people here is somewhat disturbed or at least surprised by what seems to be a defense of him. ....

I mentioned FOMA so I don't have to mention his architect. Many people say loudly that this organization has robbed the sport from the clubs. ....

Now, if after June 3 he keeps his position, many of us will be strongly disappointed. ...
Ciro, you have been the first who realised that the Mosley scandal is most likely the attempt of Mr.E to get rid of Mosley. If its true I would be disapointed if said conspiracy were successfull by perpetuating the influence of FOM on F1 and widening it.

When the whole thing started I have expressed my hope that those who planted the scandal should get caught and that the FIA will focus on finding a suitable successor of honesty and capability for Mosley who will not be instrumentalised by the FOM. That seems to be a prerequisite to a good solution.

I have no intention to defend Mosley because his stay in office makes no sense against the will of the club members. there can be very little doubt from week one of the story that the big mobility clubs are dead against him staying. But I'm also a curious guy and like to find out what is smoke screen and what really happened. I must say that I also enjoy exchanging arguments with the aim of learning. there have been some eye openers along the way.

regardless of his lack of qualities as a family man Mosley has done a number of good things for motoring and F1. I'm not even talking about safety. The FIA had to eventually seperate from the commercial aspects and the way that has been done merits criticism, true enough. but at the end of that process Mosley has brought the F1 rules back into the FIA control and got rid of the much abused veto. I hope it will remain that way when he is gone. after a long time the rule development is working in an efficient and democratic way. do I need to mention that for the first time in many years the problematic balance of downforce and mechanical grip was adressed by consensus? previouly all discussions always ended with one team blocking a solution and the FIA finally having to issue a dictate. it is much better now. there is a fundamental rehash on the way for 2009 that all teams decided together. no sign of dictate by the FIA. even the question of not delaying KERS another year was decided democratically.

I already hear some people saying that the FIA is still dictating. I don't think that is true. Take for instance the decision to require constructor status from 2010. The majority has decided against Mosleys wishes and it looks like he has respected that decision. The majority has also asked to do budget cuts instead of resource control. aqain Mosley has picked up the ball and tried to run with it. the FIA made proposals that get dicussed and eventually the majority decides. In my view this is going to help F1 to evolve for the better.
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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Well, I postulated the "Bernie did it" hypothesis as a story to entertain, looking for similarities between Ballestre and Mosley, that was that. Mosley has become increasingly paranoid, but he also has no proof. Ballestre also became paranoid as the election in 1991 approached. He was treated hard. I remembered today, elsewhere, that Ballestre used to say he was a member of the French resistance. When the pictures of him in nazi uniform surfaced, he said he was a double agent. All the people that could be witness to that were dead. Yeah, droit.

One can only imagine the pain he felt when he went to Brazil in the wake of the Senna affair and saw the grandstands standing to attention, their arms outstretched in Nazi salutes, chanting "Sieg Heil!" as he went about his business. I swear I'm not making this up.

On the successor story, Ecclestone said here: http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/200 ... uture.html

"I don't think Jean Todt would have any opportunity of becoming president of the FIA. I think the next FIA president, if Max leaves, is gonna be somebody from the clubs. The FIA represents 222 clubs in the world. Some very small with a thousand members, some clubs like the AAA in America got 30 million. So... and I think there'll be somebody from those clubs who will be president.

Difficult for Jean, if he were president he would still seem Ferrari. It's anymore than... if you like, Ron Dennis, if you like, becoming president. I don't think anybody from Formula One.

- From your position as well?

My position is completely different. My position is I'm chief executive for a company. It's owned by a group... you know, it was sold to them, and if I'm not here they will find somebody else."

Interesting. Most people have heard about Nick Craw, another not-so-clear premonition I had some time ago. Who knows?
Ciro

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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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everybody should watch this interview with Bernie. its worthwhile.

strangely I agree with most of what Bernie says.

Jean Todt has never been a likely contender in my view. I also think that the next president will come from the mobility clubs.

they will change the system sooner or later and make their member numbers a power base. they will also have closer cooperation in commercial issues. in fact they already do.

my main concern with Bernie is that he will once again use an era of upheaval to put his and CVC's money making machine into higher gear. and this time he could have set is eyes on the mobility side instead of the racing. the Sag/AA story is the blueprint of how you skim 2 billion pounds off the change process in one quick move.

not that a gratefull mobility president could not give him some nice fringe bennies on the racing side! we know what residual powers the FIA hold that are troublesome for Bernie.

Mosleys paranoia as you call it is probably based on the real experience that he is set up as the fall boy. thats been decided some time ago and he isn't going to change that in my view. it is more a question of how to extract himself from the mess with some rest of control for the FIA.

ACCUS Nick Craw could be a possible candidate but realistically it could be the UK's AA guy or a stooge from the AAA or a guy like Tomzyk from the ADAC. The FIA nomination process is likely to be non transparent and that will play into Bernies and CVC's hands. those guys are so much more sophisticated in commercial matters than the FIA mobility amateurs! they will run rings around whoever is nominated.

finally a word to Joe Saward and the commissioner of F1. LOL the media are supposed to watch things and report independantly to control those in power. their purpose isn't to share power. there will be a lot of democratic legitimation involved if the statutes of the FIA get changed to reflect membership numbers. my concern is more that the latest consultational decision making model, that has worked well in F1, will be short lived. I have already mentioned that.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)