Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[AJI]

You have to have a sizeable upgrade package that makes sense to take the grid penalty.

Why? They're not a front running team. They're STR, a valid team in their own right, but effectively RBR's junior team and Honda are prospectively RBR's new engine partner.

Continuous running of 'used' PUs over race weekends will validate their reliability expectations.

Sure, but if it 'don't work' why validate that it still doesn't work?

Manufacturing new parts every two weeks isn't as easy as just proclaiming that Honda should do it.

No it's not easy, I think we all get that. But if it's the best path to success then surely it should be pursued?

Upgraded MGUH components in this short of time may be a modified bearing seal, a change in the bushings in the MGUH mounts, small baffle changes in the oil tank, or something else.

Or it could mean all of the above and more. Why not pursue them all? It's only money, Honda have plenty of that. It's the prestige that is priceless…
I mean seriously.., isn't the object of this project to secure a WDC or WCC (preferably both) with a top tier team? RBR and Verstappen are their best shot. 2018 is the make-or-break year for Honda.

[dren]

Continuous running of 'used' PUs over race weekends will validate their reliability expectations.

Sure, but if it 'don't work' why validate that it still doesn't work?

You won't know it doesn't work until it doesn't work, hence running the PUs until their intended replacement schedule.

Upgraded MGUH components in this short of time may be a modified bearing seal, a change in the bushings in the MGUH mounts, small baffle changes in the oil tank, or something else.

Or it could mean all of the above and more. Why not pursue them all? It's only money, Honda have plenty of that. It's the prestige that is priceless…
I mean seriously.., isn't the object of this project to secure a WDC or WCC (preferably both) with a top tier team? RBR and Verstappen are their best shot. 2018 is the make-or-break year for Honda.

It was a guess since none of us know the exact failure. I'm sure Honda is doing absolutely nothing.

[Dimi]

red for honda yellow renault

[dren]

That's the trend with all of the PUs, moving more cooling up and rearward of the PU for aero gains on the side pods.

[Snorked]

Vibrations from bumps / kerbs caused the failure according to the headline: http://members.f1-life.net/race/66247/

[Pany]

It looks like they put compressor in the back and erased the split tirbo design?

You have to have a sizeable upgrade package that makes sense to take the grid penalty.

Why? They're not a front running team. They're STR, a valid team in their own right, but effectively RBR's junior team and Honda are prospectively RBR's new engine partner.

Continuous running of 'used' PUs over race weekends will validate their reliability expectations.

Sure, but if it 'don't work' why validate that it still doesn't work?

Manufacturing new parts every two weeks isn't as easy as just proclaiming that Honda should do it.

No it's not easy, I think we all get that. But if it's the best path to success then surely it should be pursued?

Upgraded MGUH components in this short of time may be a modified bearing seal, a change in the bushings in the MGUH mounts, small baffle changes in the oil tank, or something else.

Or it could mean all of the above and more. Why not pursue them all? It's only money, Honda have plenty of that. It's the prestige that is priceless…
I mean seriously.., isn't the object of this project to secure a WDC or WCC (preferably both) with a top tier team? RBR and Verstappen are their best shot. 2018 is the make-or-break year for Honda.

[Wouter]

Vibrations from bumps / kerbs caused the failure according to the headline: http://members.f1-life.net/race/66247/

Could you or someone else possibly translate the most important things from the article?
Where does this information come from and by whom? Thank you.

[AJI]

...I'm sure Honda is doing absolutely nothing.

Well, that was in-fact the exact opposite of what I was suggesting...
I'm not sure why you're picking on me? I honestly want Honda to succeed.

[dren]

...I'm sure Honda is doing absolutely nothing.

Well, that was in-fact the exact opposite of what I was suggesting...
I'm not sure why you're picking on me? I honestly want Honda to succeed.

Might be how I read it. No worries man.

[Richard C]

Wazari posted this late 2017 in which he talks about many cooks being involved in the PU design. Note MAT involvement...

I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc. The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.

A much more recent post by Wazari talks to prior MAT involvement...

Wazari san, it could be translated to let say honda jet engine division also give input to HRD turbocharger? And as my little knowledge, honda did not do the Electronic in house, and always using vendor instead. Could it be this horizontal integration in F1 engine program involving RBT from the design stage or manufacturing stage? All of US know that Last 3 years the CF work, Electronic and battery is produced by MAT, so honda has shifted this project entirely to RBT?

Yes, HRD did receive input from the aircraft division with regards to several components of the turbine and shaft/bearing design. McLaren took lead of the ERS system with majority of the components provided by MAT and its associated vendor/partners. This part of the project is now in-house, not RBT. Is that what you're asking?

This post from awhile back has intrigued me...

Anyone knows if Honda are still using the MGU-H built by MAT or have already started using one built in-house?

My questions are around the 2018 ERS and more specifically the problematic MGU-H. Is there still any relationship between Honda and MAT today? In short, does MAT provide any part of the 2018 PU? As part of the McLaren divorce, was there some type of IP settlement (licensing agreement) with respect to MAT technology, or did Honda have to reinvent the wheel for the 2018 ERS solution to work around technology previously provided by MAT? How much of the 2018 MGU-H is "Honda designed" vs. someone else (MAT or otherwise).

Lastly, I can't find the post right now, but I think someone said that the 2018 MGU-H is going to be replaced mid-season by a new Honda design. That implies that the current solution is not Honda's? If any of that is true, is the new MGU-H for this weekend just an improvement of the prior design, or is this the above mentioned in-house replacement that has just been moved forward?

Richard

[Revs84]

Wazari posted this late 2017 in which he talks about many cooks being involved in the PU design. Note MAT involvement...

I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc. The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.

A much more recent post by Wazari talks to prior MAT involvement...

Wazari san, it could be translated to let say honda jet engine division also give input to HRD turbocharger? And as my little knowledge, honda did not do the Electronic in house, and always using vendor instead. Could it be this horizontal integration in F1 engine program involving RBT from the design stage or manufacturing stage? All of US know that Last 3 years the CF work, Electronic and battery is produced by MAT, so honda has shifted this project entirely to RBT?

Yes, HRD did receive input from the aircraft division with regards to several components of the turbine and shaft/bearing design. McLaren took lead of the ERS system with majority of the components provided by MAT and its associated vendor/partners. This part of the project is now in-house, not RBT. Is that what you're asking?

This post from awhile back has intrigued me...

Anyone knows if Honda are still using the MGU-H built by MAT or have already started using one built in-house?

My questions are around the 2018 ERS and more specifically the problematic MGU-H. Is there still any relationship between Honda and MAT today? In short, does MAT provide any part of the 2018 PU? As part of the McLaren divorce, was there some type of IP settlement (licensing agreement) with respect to MAT technology, or did Honda have to reinvent the wheel for the 2018 ERS solution to work around technology previously provided by MAT? How much of the 2018 MGU-H is "Honda designed" vs. someone else (MAT or otherwise).

Lastly, I can't find the post right now, but I think someone said that the 2018 MGU-H is going to be replaced mid-season by a new Honda design. That implies that the current solution is not Honda's? If any of that is true, is the new MGU-H for this weekend just an improvement of the prior design, or is this the above mentioned in-house replacement that has just been moved forward?

Richard

I'm pretty sure I had read it somewhere else outside of this forum, otherwise it wouldn't stick to my mind that Honda were using an outsourced MGU-H.

However, I was not able to find the source right now, and apart from Wazari's claims, all I could find is a post by muramasa quoting Honda saying that they were using "components" supplied by McLaren. The only item specifically mentioned is the Battery Pack, due to the fact that it seems to be the only problematic component for them to develop in Sakura due to global air freight restrictions on batteries.

The quote does say 'components', although it's not clear what else. I'm starting to believe that I might have read that the MGU-H is an MAT component in this forum so many times that I eventually started to believe it

That being said, I'll keep on searching and will share if I find such information elsewhere as well.

[PlatinumZealot]

From and engineering standpoint, the easiest way is to use the McLaren MGUH provisionally if I don't have the new Honda one ready. It is common sense.

[Thunder18]

All teams use components from Mclaren Technology outfit, it's a separate division. I doubt Honda would revert back to McLaren MGUH though.

[PhillipM]

AFAIK it was never a 'mclaren mguh' - merely some of the control/power electronics for the unit were supplied by MAT

[sn809]

AFAIK it was never a 'mclaren mguh' - merely some of the control/power electronics for the unit were supplied by MAT

It was a MAT battery and recovery system. All cars use a MAT ECU as MAT won the tender for it. They then write their own software code even customer teams. This is why Merc team uses their engines better than the customer teams. They have better coded software for their cars.