2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Big Tea]

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations. When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

https://statics.sportskeeda.com/wp-cont ... 24x606.jpg

Nowhere in the regulations or this image is the capacity of the ES described at all.

In one lap around the circuit, the ES cannot send more than 4MJ of energy to the MGU-K, this is what the regulations call state of charge. It cannot send more while the car is out on track, and it cannot be charged in the pits. If the total capacity of the energy cells was 4MJ, and you depleted the entire 4MJ in a lap you'd have a bricked battery. They run the battery down to 20% that's what the little red part in the bar at the bottom of the steering wheel signifies. They don't want to run the battery in the red for too long as it increases the likelihood of bricking it, or worse dendrification.

Is dendrifacation not more heat generated than capacity/amount related? (asking, not questioning)

[AJI]

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations. When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

https://statics.sportskeeda.com/wp-cont ... 24x606.jpg

Nowhere in the regulations or this image is the capacity of the ES described at all.

In one lap around the circuit, the ES cannot send more than 4MJ of energy to the MGU-K, this is what the regulations call state of charge. It cannot send more while the car is out on track, and it cannot be charged in the pits. If the total capacity of the energy cells was 4MJ, and you depleted the entire 4MJ in a lap you'd have a bricked battery. They run the battery down to 20% that's what the little red part in the bar at the bottom of the steering wheel signifies. They don't want to run the battery in the red for too long as it increases the likelihood of bricking it, or worse dendrification.

I agree on almost every point, but i read the 'max min SoC of the ES' in relation to the K and the H, not just the K, as it isn't specified and this is where the trickery (as exposed by Hondas admission) happens.
IMO this is a poorly worded hangover from the pre 2014 KERS system, and is compounded by F1 commentators simplistically equating 4MJ as 120kW for 33.3 seconds, which of course it is, but that's not how they use it.

[godlameroso]

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations. When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

https://statics.sportskeeda.com/wp-cont ... 24x606.jpg

Nowhere in the regulations or this image is the capacity of the ES described at all.

In one lap around the circuit, the ES cannot send more than 4MJ of energy to the MGU-K, this is what the regulations call state of charge. It cannot send more while the car is out on track, and it cannot be charged in the pits. If the total capacity of the energy cells was 4MJ, and you depleted the entire 4MJ in a lap you'd have a bricked battery. They run the battery down to 20% that's what the little red part in the bar at the bottom of the steering wheel signifies. They don't want to run the battery in the red for too long as it increases the likelihood of bricking it, or worse dendrification.

Is dendrifacation not more heat generated than capacity/amount related? (asking, not questioning)

Dendirfication happens when the anode forms dendrites that reach for the cathode, when they touch they can short circuit the battery and then it can catch on fire.

[henry]

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations. When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

https://statics.sportskeeda.com/wp-cont ... 24x606.jpg

Nowhere in the regulations or this image is the capacity of the ES described at all.

In one lap around the circuit, the ES cannot send more than 4MJ of energy to the MGU-K, this is what the regulations call state of charge. It cannot send more while the car is out on track, and it cannot be charged in the pits. If the total capacity of the energy cells was 4MJ, and you depleted the entire 4MJ in a lap you'd have a bricked battery. They run the battery down to 20% that's what the little red part in the bar at the bottom of the steering wheel signifies. They don't want to run the battery in the red for too long as it increases the likelihood of bricking it, or worse dendrification.

You are right. The regulations don’t specify the capacity of the battery pack.

However, I think you are misinterpreting SOC. SOC is the level of charge in the batteries. It may not vary by more than 4 MJ “at any time the car is on the track”. It’s a bucket which can be filled and emptied as many times as you like so long as the capacity used is never more than 4 MJ. The bucket can be both emptied into and filled from the K and the H.

The 4 MJ to the K is a separate restriction.

On a qualifying lap they likely use much more than 4MJ, very likely 6 and quite possibly in the region of 7 or 8. It will be used to drive the K (restricted to 4 MJ) and the H ( for anti lag and to drive the compressor in supercharge mode).

As you say if they fully drained the battery it would be bricked it seems likely they start the event with say 1 MJ in the battery and cycle between 5 and 1. Or some other numbers. As you say they can’t charge during qualifying or the race, but they could charge prior to these.

The image you show is not the most recent. The 2018 regs published 21 sept 2017 carry the additional text about measurement of energy flows which prompted my question.

I still don’t know how they identify energy paths from the 2 measurements they specify. In particular, Honda’s “extra harvest” mode would see 120kw leaving the K and 25msec later 120 kw arriving at the ES. So they would need to have measurement code that looks for simultaneous ES and K flows to discriminate between direct flow and flow via the H.

[AJI]

….It’s a bucket which can be filled and emptied as many times as you like so long as the capacity used is never more than 4 MJ. The bucket can be both emptied into and filled from the K and the H.

Exactly, once per lap.

The 4 MJ to the K is a separate restriction.
On a qualifying lap they likely use much more than 4MJ, very likely 6 and quite possibly in the region of 7 or 8. It will be used to drive the K (restricted to 4 MJ) and the H ( for anti lag and to drive the compressor in supercharge mode).

Not quite. There is no direct restriction between H and K. They can pump the K up all day long if they use the H and vice versa. 'Party mode..?'

As you say if they fully drained the battery it would be bricked it seems likely they start the event with say 1 MJ in the battery and cycle between 5 and 1. Or some other numbers. As you say they can’t charge during qualifying or the race, but they could charge prior to these.

The battery capacity must be huge for longevity, at least 10MJ. They're only allowed 2 ES per year this year, (I think?) and it would definitely be fully charged prior to race and quali.

[AJI]

Okay, I did some very simple calcs on projected battery size for the ES. The only thing mandated in the specs is min 20kg max 25kg including cells, clamping plates and connections. No mention of cooling.

I used off-the-shelf very high powered RC lipo packs as a basis. Obviously not F1 spec, but I needed to use something…

200 5.5Ah 3.7v (nominal) cells which weigh 125g each gives us 14.652MJ of storage, 740v and 25kg weight. These are 100C cells, so they can burst 407kW.
The above cells peaked to 4.2v max gives us 16.63MJ of storage, 840v and 462kW burst.

If that's what I can do with freely available cells then I can only imagine F1 can eclipse this...

[Nickel]

20-25kg including clamping hardware and connections. Assume teams are running the lightest config possible because f1.

Therefore 20kg minus hardware weight. I don't know what that would weigh but let's say .5 to 1kg? So 19kg of bat. So by your numbers at max V would be 12.64 MJ...

[AJI]

20-25kg including clamping hardware and connections. Assume teams are running the lightest config possible because f1.

Therefore 20kg minus hardware weight. I don't know what that would weigh but let's say .5 to 1kg? So 19kg of bat. So by your numbers at max V would be 12.64 MJ...

I take your point, but the cars are big fat pigs right now with the battery in a great place for CoG. The top teams would run ballast to get up to minimum weight anyway, so I'm sticking with 25kg. Never the less, as you pointed out a 20kg battery based on your amended version of my back-of-the-napkin calcs with 5 minutes of battery research still gives us over 12MJ…
The fast recharging is the hard part. It's all very easy to dump a battery at 100 times it's rated Ah output, but putting it back in is much more difficult. Either the battery is way over spec'd (capacity wise) or the cooling systems are amazing..

[NL_Fer]

A ltihium battery does not produce much waste heat when charging, they are very efficient. Tesla is charging over 100kw because of that.

[Cold Fussion]

Are you talking full electric or hybrid?
There's no way the current infrastructure could handle a massive switch to full EV. However, I assume Elon Musk's plan for world domination has an end game in the form of controlling all the electricity in the world...

Well most manufacturers are committing to like 50-100% EV by the mid 20s so with that in mind I think there is a very little limited window the turbine recovery to become a road technology.

So, are you suggesting that there will be a sufficient upgrade to the electricity grid in this timeframe to support the target? You're talking pure EV's yeah? Not hybrids?

The point I am making is that I feel this technology is too expensive to find it's way into 'normal' mass produced cars. Whether or not the grid is upgraded or not I don't know but I'm not suggested there will be 50% EV's on the road in 2025, just 50% of new cars sold.

[AJI]

A ltihium battery does not produce much waste heat when charging, they are very efficient. Tesla is charging over 100kw because of that.

It's hard to compare a Tesla P100 which has 100kWh of storage, and an F1 car that only has ~4kWh (in my best case scenario example). Also, the duty cycles are totally different. For a P100 it is 1 cycle over ~500km at medium duty then it gets parked and charged. For an F1 car it's as many laps as there are in a race over ~305km at full duty, ideally with a full 4MJ deplete and recharge every on lap.

[AJI]

The point I am making is that I feel this technology is too expensive to find it's way into 'normal' mass produced cars. Whether or not the grid is upgraded or not I don't know but I'm not suggested there will be 50% EV's on the road in 2025, just 50% of new cars sold.

I hear you, and I know you mean 50% of new cars sold, but I just don't see it happening without a major upgrade in the electrical infrastructure. I'm by no means saying it's impossible, but an EV with an ICE based range extender seems more likely than pure EV making 50% of sales by 2025.

I had a conversation with manoah2u in his off the grid home thread about this. Ideally (for 100% of-the-grid), I'd like 200kW of panels on my house, enough storage to keep the house going for a day and the rest charges the car (let's say a Tesla P100 that I only need 50% of its storage capacity) which in turn runs the house when the home storage is low.

[henry]

….It’s a bucket which can be filled and emptied as many times as you like so long as the capacity used is never more than 4 MJ. The bucket can be both emptied into and filled from the K and the H.

Exactly, once per lap.

My understanding is that it is not just once per lap. In the race the driver could build up charge to the 4 MJ limit over several laps and then use it for attack or defence. I think this is what we saw Ricciardo do in the Baku.

The 4 MJ to the K is a separate restriction.
On a qualifying lap they likely use much more than 4MJ, very likely 6 and quite possibly in the region of 7 or 8. It will be used to drive the K (restricted to 4 MJ) and the H ( for anti lag and to drive the compressor in supercharge mode).

Not quite. There is no direct restriction between H and K. They can pump the K up all day long if they use the H and vice versa. 'Party mode..?'

You are right. There is the possibility of “extra deployment”. It’s an interesting energy management question as to where they would get the extra harvest from to provide the opportunity to exceed 4 MJ to the K.

For lap time efficiency in this formula it is best to use as much energy as possible at the lowest speed possible above the traction limit (TL). So in qualifying they will run “electric supercharger” mode from TL to some higher speed (ES energy rate say 150 kw) , switch to “self sustain plus” (ES rate 60 kw) and maybe later in the straight switch to charging the ES using the H, or H +K, or maybe “extra harvest”. Since at high speed most energy is being used to push air out of the way it’s more lap time efficient to recover some energy at high speed for use at low speed later.

I think it is extremely difficult for outside observes to know how often the full ES to K limit is used.

As an aside, IMO the emphasis on traction in this formula is guided by the need to deploy stored energy at as low speed as possible.

As you say if they fully drained the battery it would be bricked it seems likely they start the event with say 1 MJ in the battery and cycle between 5 and 1. Or some other numbers. As you say they can’t charge during qualifying or the race, but they could charge prior to these.

The battery capacity must be huge for longevity, at least 10MJ. They're only allowed 2 ES per year this year, (I think?) and it would definitely be fully charged prior to race and quali.

Is it possible that some of this pre-charge could be used to drive the K via the H without the measuring function noticing?

I don’t know how SOC is measured on a battery. The regs suggest the only measure they make is energy flux, but since there are several unregulated flows there must be some logic involved and hence an opportunity to defeat that logic.

[AJI]

….It’s a bucket which can be filled and emptied as many times as you like so long as the capacity used is never more than 4 MJ. The bucket can be both emptied into and filled from the K and the H.

Exactly, once per lap.

My understanding is that it is not just once per lap. In the race the driver could build up charge to the 4 MJ limit over several laps and then use it for attack or defence. I think this is what we saw Ricciardo do in the Baku.

4MJ per lap max. The target should be more than 4MJ to the ES per lap and turn the excess into direct K or H drive. Anything less than 4MJ to the ES per lap is a fail…

The 4 MJ to the K is a separate restriction.
On a qualifying lap they likely use much more than 4MJ, very likely 6 and quite possibly in the region of 7 or 8. It will be used to drive the K (restricted to 4 MJ) and the H ( for anti lag and to drive the compressor in supercharge mode).

Not quite. There is no direct restriction between H and K. They can pump the K up all day long if they use the H and vice versa. 'Party mode..?'

You are right. There is the possibility of “extra deployment”. It’s an interesting energy management question as to where they would get the extra harvest from to provide the opportunity to exceed 4 MJ to the K.

Fuel. Motor against the K or keep the waste gates closed on the H on slow laps?

For lap time efficiency in this formula it is best to use as much energy as possible at the lowest speed possible above the traction limit (TL). So in qualifying they will run “electric supercharger” mode from TL to some higher speed (ES energy rate say 150 kw) , switch to “self sustain plus” (ES rate 60 kw) and maybe later in the straight switch to charging the ES using the H, or H +K, or maybe “extra harvest”. Since at high speed most energy is being used to push air out of the way it’s more lap time efficient to recover some energy at high speed for use at low speed later.

This is where Mercedes were the masters. That hot lap has all ES energy available, plus max K recovery, plus direct K-H-K transfers, plus a team strategy that can put you into the ideal lap window… The list is endless.

I think it is extremely difficult for outside observes to know how often the full ES to K limit is used.

Agreed, but it's nice to have a guess. I quite like your theorising

As an aside, IMO the emphasis on traction in this formula is guided by the need to deploy stored energy at as low speed as possible.

Agreed, unless defending in a race

As you say if they fully drained the battery it would be bricked it seems likely they start the event with say 1 MJ in the battery and cycle between 5 and 1. Or some other numbers. As you say they can’t charge during qualifying or the race, but they could charge prior to these.

The battery capacity must be huge for longevity, at least 10MJ. They're only allowed 2 ES per year this year, (I think?) and it would definitely be fully charged prior to race and quali.

Is it possible that some of this pre-charge could be used to drive the K via the H without the measuring function noticing?

I think that's what Merc has been doing forever..?

I don’t know how SOC is measured on a battery. The regs suggest the only measure they make is energy flux, but since there are several unregulated flows there must be some logic involved and hence an opportunity to defeat that logic.

There's also the 95% efficiency rule. The actual number is really ~4.2MJ

[Zynerji]

I feel EV adoption will flourish as the world turns to LED lighting, low power electronics, and super high efficiency appliances.

Right now, most homes can change their lightbulbs at a 12:1 Watt ratio. So replacing 12 60w incandescent with 12 5w LED alone is a gigantic drop in world wide consumption when multiplied by tens of millions of homes.

Supply and demand will drive infrastructure expansion by the power companies themselves as they will need to offer new services to raise demand (EV charging stations), or they will be left with high production/low demand, and they will perish.