2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

[radosav]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well i must add to this that Ferrari reverted to old suspension after it was clear that suspension update wasn't delivering few races back.
So even top teams are not always on top of it.

[henry]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well they haven’t made things easier by the extreme inboard pickup for the rear suspension pull rod. That choice means that the movement of the control elements, springs, dampers/inerter(s), will be less for any given wheel movement. This will amplify any errors in control.

It also means the forces at the ends of the pull rod will be higher requiring higher installation stiffness.

[RonDennis]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well i must add to this that Ferrari reverted to old suspension after it was clear that suspension update wasn't delivering few races back.
So even top teams are not always on top of it.

You're wrong.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... o-1041777/

[M840TR]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well i must add to this that Ferrari reverted to old suspension after it was clear that suspension update wasn't delivering few races back.
So even top teams are not always on top of it.

You're wrong.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... o-1041777/

Well, the problem they were facing was high deg which is assuaged by the characteristics of Monaco track so probably changed it back

[ALO_Power]

Guys, from this video with all of the team radios you can clearly see that Alonso started to suffer from power outrages (probably derating like Ricciardo) for quite some laps and they told him that he can continue like this (but of course with less power). The gearbox issue came quite some time after this. That explains how Alonso lost pace and got caught so quickly by Gasly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh3csP1krf0

[godlameroso]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well they haven’t made things easier by the extreme inboard pickup for the rear suspension pull rod. That choice means that the movement of the control elements, springs, dampers/inerter(s), will be less for any given wheel movement. This will amplify any errors in control.

It also means the forces at the ends of the pull rod will be higher requiring higher installation stiffness.

You mean the motion ratio is higher requiring stiffer springs and damping than if the pull rod was mounted closer to the upright? Surely McLaren knows this, and their pick up points are by design.

[PhillipM]

They will be, but it still causes issues with joint compliance, etc. everything has to be larger and more precisely toleranced than other designs, and since you can assume they're all running things like that as tight as they can anyway, then somewhere they've had to compromise.
Obviously they think the aero gain outweighs it at most places.

[Alonso Fan]

Guys, from this video with all of the team radios you can clearly see that Alonso started to suffer from power outrages (probably derating like Ricciardo) for quite some laps and they told him that he can continue like this (but of course with less power). The gearbox issue came quite some time after this. That explains how Alonso lost pace and got caught so quickly by Gasly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh3csP1krf0

Yes I saw this too. He dropped back from ocon by like 3 seconds in one lap when they were doing similar pace all race

[godlameroso]

They will be, but it still causes issues with joint compliance, etc. everything has to be larger and more precisely toleranced than other designs, and since you can assume they're all running things like that as tight as they can anyway, then somewhere they've had to compromise.
Obviously they think the aero gain outweighs it at most places.

I still think the bargeboard foot plate and the outer edge of the bargeboards are where they need to focus. There's tons of time waiting to be found there. At least .3 seconds and as much as .7 waiting to be found in just that area alone. Haas was forced to remove theirs for Monaco and they were nowhere. That shows how important that area is, it's not possible for a car that was easily best of the rest one race ago to be almost dead last, but that small change really hurt them.

[henry]

I think one thing that seemed clear from Monaco was the lack of mechanical grip for McLaren.

It’s something that the top teams all seem to have under control- especially Mercedes since around 2013.

For the untrained such as myself- can anyone explain how you design a car to have improved mechanical grip? I see how McLaren are looking to improve their aerodynamics but is that not largely something that you see the benefit of at high speed? In the lower speed corners, what creates the so called “mechanical grip”?

And I guess then, why are Merc ,Ferrari and RBR strong in this regard?

Thanks

Well they haven’t made things easier by the extreme inboard pickup for the rear suspension pull rod. That choice means that the movement of the control elements, springs, dampers/inerter(s), will be less for any given wheel movement. This will amplify any errors in control.

It also means the forces at the ends of the pull rod will be higher requiring higher installation stiffness.

You mean the motion ratio is higher requiring stiffer springs and damping than if the pull rod was mounted closer to the upright? Surely McLaren knows this, and their pick up points are by design.

I’m sure McLaren do know, and they assumed they could make it work and reap the benefits of better aero. In my mind it’s a risky strategy because the search for better traction is a key feature of this formula, making it harder for the suspension team doesn’t seem the right way to go.

[Andres125sx]

The numbers behind the 6-0 qualifying battle. I think there are teams where the battle looks worse for one driver, but I didn't check... let me know if you want to have a specific team checked for comparison

If you don´t mind I´d love to see Renault drivers compared. I know Sainz has improved a lot in last races in this regard, but it would be nice to see the numbers

You can post it in Renault Team thread if you will

[Andres125sx]

...the search for better traction is a key feature of this formula, making it harder for the suspension team doesn’t seem the right way to go.

I´m tempted to say aero is way more important as always in F1, but honestly I think we can´t know. It will always depend on the improvement on aero side vs handicap in suspension side. Since we can´t know any of those, we can´t know if it´s worth or not

We can only wait and see if they continue with this setup wich will mean it´s worth, or not

[diffuser]

Fun fact, Alonso’s Q3 time was slower than last year’s pole on a tyre more than a second faster.

Pirelli's new tyre for 2018, the hypersoft, has been "0.7s to 0.8s" faster than the ultrasoft, according sporting director Mario Isola.

Pirelli's tyre gap estimation
Mediums to softs: 0.8s
Softs to supersofts: 0.4s
Supersofts to ultrasofts: 0.6s
Ultrasofts to Hypersofts: 0.7/0.8s


Also the Ultrasoft being the same name as last years tire isn't the same tire.

“We decided not only to move all the range one step softer, but to introduce one more level of softer compound, that is the pink hypersoft.”

Hamilton’s q2 lap on ultras was about a second slower

yep and planes fly.

[diffuser]

You can't compare Van Q2 vs ALO Q2 cause ALO was faster in Q3. The Gap is then .330 not .24.

You don't know if ALO was going all out in Q2 or holding back. I just double checked Monaco...I didn't do the others.

If he had such a small gap to P11, of course he was going all out. Besides, rule number 1 is don't compare times across different sessions. Track conditions are always improving during qualifying, as is the drivers' feeling of the car and track. They may also be on different tyres from Q2 to Q3, because Q3 participants receive an extra set of options. I know this was not the case in Monaco because both were already on hypers in Q2, but it may happen in other cases.

In short, taking times from the last session that both drivers participated in, is the most correct thing to do.

(If you must know, the only other occasion where they didn't both go out in the same session was in Azerbaijan, where Alonso lost 0.009s in Q2 compared to Q1. So all in all, this twisted logic moves the average delta up by 0.015s.)

This for me has nothing to do with VAN because ...I'm not gonna really looking at Van till the fall(although I do see what everyone is saying).

But can't compare Baku to Monaco cause AlO didn't make it into Q3. While in Monaco he didn't complete his last lap of Q2 because the other drivers vying for Q3 didn't improve.

[diffuser]

They will be, but it still causes issues with joint compliance, etc. everything has to be larger and more precisely toleranced than other designs, and since you can assume they're all running things like that as tight as they can anyway, then somewhere they've had to compromise.
Obviously they think the aero gain outweighs it at most places.

I still think the bargeboard foot plate and the outer edge of the bargeboards are where they need to focus. There's tons of time waiting to be found there. At least .3 seconds and as much as .7 waiting to be found in just that area alone. Haas was forced to remove theirs for Monaco and they were nowhere. That shows how important that area is, it's not possible for a car that was easily best of the rest one race ago to be almost dead last, but that small change really hurt them.

I agree with future barge board changes will improve Aero efficiency and overall DF. That doesn't make up for the loss of mechanical grip from the rear suspension change. I've been suspicious since testing, that the grip out of slow corners has been questionable. I don't think it's anything they can change this year.