General Honda F1 Topic

[Snorked]

https://streamable.com/2n28h

Gasly passing Kmag rather convincingly

Mag must've made a mistake going into the hairpin as that was too easy.

[Marti_EF3]

https://streamable.com/2n28h

Gasly passing Kmag rather convincingly

https://abload.de/img/gasly-ffrmknb.gif

Mag must've made a mistake going into the hairpin as that was too easy.

Looool Vtec kicked in yo!

[TakataDomeNSX]

https://streamable.com/2n28h

Gasly passing Kmag rather convincingly

https://abload.de/img/gasly-ffrmknb.gif

Mag must've made a mistake going into the hairpin as that was too easy.

Whatever it was, nice video editing job!

[Hino]

The ‘size zero’ concept of having the turbo in the vee quickly became an obsolete layout because of efficiencies in the hybrid systems improving enough to justify far bigger turbos than could be fitted. Even after that concept was abandoned for last year, vibrational problems that limited the performance could have been fixed, say Honda, if only the problem mechanical components had been allowed a little more space.

MPH: hot Honda sets up Red Bull deal article by Mark Hughes.

[NL_Fer]

How do you guys think about tuning the powerunit and ers? It is only this year Honda is a bit on the same ground as the other 3, but this could mean they are 4 years behind in tuning/harvest/deploy strategy.

[PhillipM]

I doubt it, they concentrated a lot on that area with Mclaren last year after the earlier engines had so much trouble with drivability and deployment.

[muramasa]

The ‘size zero’ concept of having the turbo in the vee quickly became an obsolete layout because of efficiencies in the hybrid systems improving enough to justify far bigger turbos than could be fitted. Even after that concept was abandoned for last year, vibrational problems that limited the performance could have been fixed, say Honda, if only the problem mechanical components had been allowed a little more space.

MPH: hot Honda sets up Red Bull deal article by Mark Hughes.

Mark Hughes has no clue, looks like he's just writing stuffs coming out of his head not based on evidence.

I don't know why so many people keep being obsessed with size zero. Smaller lighter faster/stronger/better/etc is basic and common principle of engineering, "size zero" is merely what Ron Dennis came up with in presentation of the car. Look at this year's Merc, or any other cars and makers, all of them are size zero too, look at whatever stuffs around you, everything is size zero as well, and most importantly the fundamental and premise about this common basic engineering principle is about performance not being sacrificed, not about the small-ness for the sake of small-ness. For journos and some people buzzwords and cliches of any sorts are convenient tool to come across and allow themselves to be lazy. Forget about size zero already, it has already long passed a point where anyone mentioning this particular word should be dismissed/disregarded instantly. Honda themselves (Arai, Hasegawa and other Honda engineers) have repeatedly been saying they were not forced anything from McLaren, that the 2015 config was what McLaren and Honda worked on and reached together, and turbo being too small etc etc was because Honda back then did not have sort of technological "knack" about the whole thing of this high level and complicated F1 power unit, etc etc, yet why some people keep saying McLaren forced Honda or it was McLaren fault or whatever, I have no idea.

Regarding the vibration issue at the beginning of 2017, firstly, lack of preparation/collaboration. They didn't dyno-test the PU with real gearbox attached in winter (Honda engineer Kakuda, in f1sokuho special edition 2018). Hasegawa repeatedly recalled and regretted there was not enough technical collaborations between McLaren in matching preparation process during winter.
Secondly, there were 2 separate vibration/oscillation issues. Initially revised MGU-K was having issue, which arose only when matched with real gearbox and run under real on-track environment. MGU-K's shaft was breaking because of its vibration with drive system. This was solved in time for Melbourne. [f1sokuho special edition 2018]. Then the first version of ICE had erratic combustion issue in lower rpm range, that was causing cliff in torque curve and inconsistent power delivery in low-mid rpm range. This was another and major cause of vibration. Was solved in Spain with the upgrade to intake system which improved low speed torque. [repeatedly explained by Hasegawa across GPs]
So in short, lack of dyno experiment/evaluation opportunity, insufficient exchange b/w McLaren and inherent issue/flaw in initial version ICE as well as MGU-K. Nothing to do with space or sizing.

[McHonda]

Nice post muramasa with actual facts.

[ispano6]

The aim to work toward size zero is both parties fault. No more Hondas fault than McLarens. Muramasa, your tone sets the wrong impression unfortunately. The fact that McLaren suffers cooling issues with burning bodywork, components that break off, gearbox failures in 2018 just goes to show the inadequacies of their operations. They tried to emulate the packaging afforded by the Honda PU but failed miserably. Honda was never on equal footing yet overconfident and McLaren was arrogant and pompous. (Granted there was at least one Honda engineer I know of who seemed cocky and probably was out of his breadth - hence the MGU-K failures). Honda tried to accommodate but the toxicity that McLaren personnel exhibited was no where near professional. They shoved Honda under the bus, the very company that brought them greatness.

Also, the fact that all other teams like MB and Ferrari pursued size zero is because obviously aspects of the idea were fundamentally sound. However no other team has managed to get the coke bottle packaging with the current formula and has had to instead have wide side pods with overhangs with aggressive tucking in of the bodywork to allow for the diffuser to receive maximum airflow. Ferrari has gotten the closest and the results speak for themselves.

Being Japanese myself I can understand Hasegawa-san's reasons for acting the way he did but for engineers back home he did not bring to light which failures were on the part of McLaren's fault of which there were many. Not to mention driver error and (possibly)sabotage.

McLaren rescinded on a plan that should have been fruitful starting this year but instead it got derailed by an American marketing "guru" and a Frenchman who preferred to speak French. They did afterall choose the PU variant that wasn't Hondas choice (ask Wazari - san).

Now Honda has a chance for the last laugh, and Helmut Marko might be thanking McLaren twice, once for blocking them from using Honda engines and being Spirit F1 of the modern Era and again for ditching Honda to replace them as the works team. Honda has new life and is feeling "bullish"!

[techman]

definetly mclaren kicking honda out gave new life to honda. hopefully a redbull honda deal will be annouced soon.

[carisi2k]

2019 Newey is a lot different to leyton house newey and even mclaren newey. It would probably be more like 91-95 Williams newey. I don't think Honda will have the same difficulties with newey as they had with Mclaren.

In any case with Cyril complaining about red bull using Mobil 1 / Exxon fuel and lubricants and thus not achieving the full potential of the Renault upgrade. I think it makes perfect sense to switch to Honda who use that fuel instead.

The freedom they get from Toro Rosso has taught Honda to stand up for themselves and to trust in their process instead of being dictated to. This should help them in discussions with Adrian Newey about the layout of the rb15.

[Wazari]

The aim to work toward size zero is both parties fault. No more Hondas fault than McLarens. Muramasa, your tone sets the wrong impression unfortunately. The fact that McLaren suffers cooling issues with burning bodywork, components that break off, gearbox failures in 2018 just goes to show the inadequacies of their operations. They tried to emulate the packaging afforded by the Honda PU but failed miserably. Honda was never on equal footing yet overconfident and McLaren was arrogant and pompous. (Granted there was at least one Honda engineer I know of who seemed cocky and probably was out of his breadth - hence the MGU-K failures). Honda tried to accommodate but the toxicity that McLaren personnel exhibited was no where near professional. They shoved Honda under the bus, the very company that brought them greatness.

Also, the fact that all other teams like MB and Ferrari pursued size zero is because obviously aspects of the idea were fundamentally sound. However no other team has managed to get the coke bottle packaging with the current formula and has had to instead have wide side pods with overhangs with aggressive tucking in of the bodywork to allow for the diffuser to receive maximum airflow. Ferrari has gotten the closest and the results speak for themselves.

Being Japanese myself I can understand Hasegawa-san's reasons for acting the way he did but for engineers back home he did not bring to light which failures were on the part of McLaren's fault of which there were many. Not to mention driver error and (possibly)sabotage.

McLaren rescinded on a plan that should have been fruitful starting this year but instead it got derailed by an American marketing "guru" and a Frenchman who preferred to speak French. They did afterall choose the PU variant that wasn't Hondas choice (ask Wazari - san).

Now Honda has a chance for the last laugh, and Helmut Marko might be thanking McLaren twice, once for blocking them from using Honda engines and being Spirit F1 of the modern Era and again for ditching Honda to replace them as the works team. Honda has new life and is feeling "bullish"!

Spot on. Furthermore, just because something was quoted by Arai-san or Hasegawa-san by the Japanese media, to take that as gospel, IMO would be a mistake. There probably isn't a more apologetic society than the Japanese and subliminally inferiority complex that the Japanese have with regards to Westerners that unfortunately makes it way to the corporate world especially when a Japanese company deals with a North American or Western European entity. It has always bothered me and the Japanese have this underlying "it's better to follow and conform" mentality whereas in Western culture it's good to standout and be outspoken with new ideas. I've even been called a rebel at Honda because I "speak out too much". As I try to get back on point (sorry to digress) Arai-san and Hasegawa-san again IMO were weak in this area and say things like "McLaren didn't make us do this or that....." going overboard to apologize for Honda's shortcomings with our PU, especially when there are contradictory written memos and correspondence DICTATING to Honda so many parameters about the PU. Drives me crazy.........

I know this is a rehash of an over-discussed topic but hey, I'm a cranky old man at times and this got my blood boiling again. On a positive note, Tanabe-san, being immersed in the western work culture for many years understands the differences and is not one to be overly apologetic and speak in half-truths for any of HRD's future shortcomings should they occur.

Happy Father's Day!

[Nova]

Old man Honda him self were quite outspoken and unapologetic wasn't he?

[Wazari]

Old man Honda him self were quite outspoken and unapologetic wasn't he?

Yes and I loved him for it.

[Talisman]

I don’t think it’s a Japanese thing to take what a company or its representatives say with a pinch of salt. According to Arai Honda contributed nothing financially to McLaren. We know this is and was patently untrue. Likewise VAG publicly claimed there was nothing wrong with its Diesel emissions until the EPA took its gloves off and turned nasty.

To take what corporations and their representatives say all the time at face value is plain naive.

I welcome Honda’s openness re it’s PU but there is no way we can prove that the issues they acknowledge in public really were the main problems they had to resolve.