Red Bull Racing have announced an agreement with Honda Motor Co Ltd to race with the Japanese manufacturer’s power units for the 2019 and 2020 Formula 1 seasons. The team therefore joins sister team Toro Rosso after their switch to Honda ahead of the 2018 season.
But there are rumours that this weekend during Le Mans Renault had a meeting with Newey in an attempt to get him on the Renault team projectadrianjordan wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 23:43Plus, who is the designer with the best track record of adapting to rule changes? Why none other than Adrian Newey...
In terms of pure calculable finance any form of motorsports, FE or SuperGT or F1, does not make sense. Why makers still do motorsports, or companies sponsor and get engaged in professional sports etc is actually profound subject. Of course publicity is part of it but still just part of it, and still many companies are there for pure exposure expecting more sales through sponsorship, but those engaged in actual technical stuffs are doing it for something else too, ie exercising, trialing and proving in ultimate circumstances. It's related to why humans do those activities that have nothing to do with living and surviving directly, like exploration from space to trekking, travelling, and whatever pastimes and hobbies. For manufacturers motorsports act as huge incentive for intra company motivation/vitality and attracting and securing younger talents.Talisman wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 16:09
What you are saying here makes no sense.
Financially being an engine supplier only makes no sense except for one thing, you can pull out of the sport at short notice with little penalty. Otherwise it’s a lose lose situation. You cannot possibly make back the money you spend on developing the engine by supplying it to customers so it’s expensive. Any publicity is diluted and shared with the chassis maker. Get it wrong and the publicity turns very negative very quickly as Honda knows too well.
If you compare winning as xxxx-Honda and winning as Honda, of course the latter is better there can be no argument about it but you cannot afford what you cannot afford. What's unsustainable is unsustainable no matter how desirable that is. But they still want to do F1, see the need to do F1 and the sustainable way for that is being supplier.Talisman wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 16:09Become a team owner and financially it’s a win win situation. You will get considerable return through prize funding and sponsorship which might mean you need to invest none of your own money overall. You get political clout to shape the future of the sport. You also get more publicity. However the downside is you have to engage in the political side which Honda doesn’t want to do and as they found out in 2008/9 the financial cost of withdrawing part way through a Concorde agreement term is truly eye watering.
Honda indeed aims to, rather is desperate to, continue F1 this time around. The cost of pulling out as supplier is cheaper and easier than the cost of pulling out of F1 as full constructor for sure, but either is still peanuts compared to the cost of starting up (again) the F1 operation and supply power unit, let alone years of running your own F1 team, as well as the cost of all the hardware investment (Sakura etc) going up in smoke, the cost of throwing away all the effort put into PU, the cost of letting down their own engineers badly, and so on. Sakura is total overkill if it's not for F1 and you invest that much into Sakura as well as MK, you cannot be half hearted to do all these. Honda stresses the importance of continuation, and no explanation is needed for why continuation and sustainability is essential, transfer of knowledge and the importance of that is universal theme of human being for tens of thousands of years, it's serious matter especially in engineering or science field overall, so you dont need to be Honda to know how much intermittent operation should be harming its F1 activity and why they stress and strive for continuity/sustainability. Also by such frequent withdrawal you lose something intangible like trust and political say in the community, next time no one will take you seriously, maybe that alone is already much more damaging than the cost it takes for withdrawal. Honda concentrate on PU supply because they want to establish sustainability for its F1 operation, not because they want to be ready to withdraw anytime. Of course you plan by estimating/anticipating the worst case scenario ie withdrawal, just like expedition like challenging Everest. All the makers and big owners always include withdrawal scenario and cost into calculation which is needless to say, but just like challenging Everest, first and foremost you plan how to continue, think of how you can continue and succeed, no one put quitting at the center of assumption or top of the list. For Honda, being PU supplier is their way of "how to continue", which is obvious for the reasons I stated previously.Talisman wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 16:09Honda may say one thing but their actions are clear. They want to be free to pull out whenever they need to. Hence why they haven’t locked themselves into the sport by buying a team. It’s not a coincidence that they are the only one of the four engine suppliers not to own its own team.
Not true. Honda got a huge amount of marketing benefits in the 80's and 90's with Williams and Mclaren. Just mention Senna's name to a Honda technician of the era and watch the emotion spill. Those 1985-92 Honda powered cars still take pride of place within Honda's halls. Nobody even gives a second look to the BAR or full factory Honda's of the naughties.Talisman wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 20:14That wasn’t my point. A Honda F1 chassis and engine winning would get more positive publicity for Honda than a Red Bull/STR/McLaren Honda winning. That’s the nature of the beast.godlameroso wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 16:47Don't confuse McLaren with Red Bull, overall this has a higher possibility of being a fruitful partnership. Honda doesn't need to own either team, supplying them with engines, and using Toro Rosso as the test team and the cost to compete can become distributed among the 3 entities. Winning the championship is still worth a nice chunk of money in this sport. If nothing else they get free engines and don't have to be a Renault customer. If Honda buys Toro Rosso it's unlikely that they'd beat Red Bull, better to have a works partnership with Red Bull which has a higher chance of winning overall in both short and long term.
BTW I’m not sure why anyone is suggesting Honda buy STR, it’s pretty clear they have no intention of doing so. They’ve discussed that briefly at board level and dismissed it. They are not going to invest heavily yet again into a midfield team in the hope of winning races with it, with Jordan, BAR and McLaren Honda have had plenty of experience of how useless and expensive an endeavour that is.
Edit: I re-read your post and agree with the rest of it.
Were the achievements of the 2000 Honda’s comparable to that of the 1980 Williams and McLarens?carisi2k wrote: ↑18 Jun 2018, 00:44Not true. Honda got a huge amount of marketing benefits in the 80's and 90's with Williams and Mclaren. Just mention Senna's name to a Honda technician of the era and watch the emotion spill. Those 1985-92 Honda powered cars still take pride of place within Honda's halls. Nobody even gives a second look to the BAR or full factory Honda's of the naughties.Talisman wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 20:14That wasn’t my point. A Honda F1 chassis and engine winning would get more positive publicity for Honda than a Red Bull/STR/McLaren Honda winning. That’s the nature of the beast.godlameroso wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 16:47
Don't confuse McLaren with Red Bull, overall this has a higher possibility of being a fruitful partnership. Honda doesn't need to own either team, supplying them with engines, and using Toro Rosso as the test team and the cost to compete can become distributed among the 3 entities. Winning the championship is still worth a nice chunk of money in this sport. If nothing else they get free engines and don't have to be a Renault customer. If Honda buys Toro Rosso it's unlikely that they'd beat Red Bull, better to have a works partnership with Red Bull which has a higher chance of winning overall in both short and long term.
BTW I’m not sure why anyone is suggesting Honda buy STR, it’s pretty clear they have no intention of doing so. They’ve discussed that briefly at board level and dismissed it. They are not going to invest heavily yet again into a midfield team in the hope of winning races with it, with Jordan, BAR and McLaren Honda have had plenty of experience of how useless and expensive an endeavour that is.
Edit: I re-read your post and agree with the rest of it.
Renault in particular very much disagrees with that. So much so that they went through all the trouble of setting up their own team. As did Daimler Benz. As did all the manufacturers who entered F1 in the boom years of the 90s and 2000s. The maths simply don’t add up for remaining only as an engine supplier.carisi2k wrote: ↑18 Jun 2018, 00:56So long as the car has the "powered by Honda" and H logo's plastered all over the car it will be a marketing win. Especially with such marketable stars that Red Bull has in Newey, Ricciardo and Verstappen. Remember it was a Newey car which ended the Mclaren Honda reign and so working with such a genius would be extremely enticing for Honda regardless if the team is Honda or Red Bull Honda. So long as the Honda name is on the car it will be a boon for Honda in Japan.
After reading his book about the Ferrari offer that he turned down, I can't see him leaving RBR for anything but retirement.
We don't know the offer and I don't see too leaving RBR at the moment but the rumours are growing and he haven't confirmed today that he is not leaving and haven't denied the meeting. What if the offer implies a project that along side F1 he is designing a car for his son next year on Lemans? That would give some thinking to any father.
We know the offer was race and production based.Redragon wrote: ↑18 Jun 2018, 17:00We don't know the offer and I don't see too leaving RBR at the moment but the rumours are growing and he haven't confirmed today that he is not leaving and haven't denied the meeting. What if the offer implies a project that along side F1 he is designing a car for his son next year on Lemans? That would give some thinking to any father.
I'm impressed by the work Honda has done lately. Definitely big improvement. Do you think that Honda is the engine to have rather than Renault next year?
