2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

[Shakeman]

I stand by what I said a couple of years ago, Red Bull will prove Ron absolutely right and one can only imagine the pressure will be right back on McLaren when an RB Honda is beating them.

It might be that Honda have not got plans to be in F1 beyond the 2020 season and would bow out then.

[ispano6]

The PU specification barely has been finalized so no point in signing a contract for a Formula no one has developed a PU yet, unless a manufacturer on the sidelines or in the current circus has been privy to the details and is pulling some strings to dictate the Formula to suit their know how. The removal of the MGU-H from the Formula might have already set development in motion for all PU manufacturers.

It might not be Honda that leaves Formula 1 but instead Red Bull and perhaps another team. Or Formula 1 itself might see a decline or compete with other rising categories. Formula E or Formula 0 (zero emissions)might be the way of the future. It may even lose out to e-sports eventually.

The problem with Formula 1 in the mainstream is that it is the epitome of extravagance and decadence. Overspending, inefficient and in effect damaging to our ecosystem, Formula 1 needs to reinvent itself for the modern age or it will suffer the same fate as empires come and gone (ever watch the documentary The Four Horsemen).
F1 isn't even the fastest form of racing anymore. That distinction goes to the Red Bull Air Race. Ironic isn't it.

[carisi2k]

Renault in particular very much disagrees with that. So much so that they went through all the trouble of setting up their own team. As did Daimler Benz. As did all the manufacturers who entered F1 in the boom years of the 90s and 2000s. The maths simply don’t add up for remaining only as an engine supplier.

Renault has had way more success as an engine supplier then as a factory effort and so statistics would disagree with Renault. 9 championships with williams, 3 with benetton (schumacher years) and 8 with Red Bull vs 4 as a factory effort.

Honda has 0 championships as a full factory effort. As an engine supplier it has had 3 championships with williams and 8 with Mclaren.

Mercedes has been more successful as a full factory effort but in the modern era Red Bull has the same amount of championships.

Of all those factory teams in the naughties. What did having their own team get them? BMW was more successful with Williams then as bmw sauber. Toyota had very limited success, Jaguar was a basket case even as Stewart and it wasn't until Red Bull took over that Milton Keynes started winning.

Renault's image problem isn't because they are associated with Red Bull. It is because they have an idiot in charge who has consistently dropped the ball. Renault dropped the ball when at the height of their powers with Williams in 1997 and they decided to leave the sport and screwing Williams over in the process who aside from a stint with BMW has struggled ever since.

[Talisman]

Renault in particular very much disagrees with that. So much so that they went through all the trouble of setting up their own team. As did Daimler Benz. As did all the manufacturers who entered F1 in the boom years of the 90s and 2000s. The maths simply don’t add up for remaining only as an engine supplier.

Renault has had way more success as an engine supplier then as a factory effort and so statistics would disagree with Renault. 9 championships with williams, 3 with benetton (schumacher years) and 8 with Red Bull vs 4 as a factory effort.

Honda has 0 championships as a full factory effort. As an engine supplier it has had 3 championships with williams and 8 with Mclaren.

Mercedes has been more successful as a full factory effort but in the modern era Red Bull has the same amount of championships.

Of all those factory teams in the naughties. What did having their own team get them? BMW was more successful with Williams then as bmw sauber. Toyota had very limited success, Jaguar was a basket case even as Stewart and it wasn't until Red Bull took over that Milton Keynes started winning.

Renault's image problem isn't because they are associated with Red Bull. It is because they have an idiot in charge who has consistently dropped the ball. Renault dropped the ball when at the height of their powers with Williams in 1997 and they decided to leave the sport and screwing Williams over in the process who aside from a stint with BMW has struggled ever since.

Renault's own behaviour would contradict you. Every time they entered as an engine supplier they ended up buying their own team a while later. Why do you think that is?

You talk about the noughties, why do you think that every single manufacturer then ended up buying a team and racing with it? In terms of finances and political clout there is no comparison possible with simply supplying engines.

You tried to compare Honda's PR gain from Williams/Honda and McLaren/Honda in the 80s/90s with that of Honda F1 in the noughties. The more accurate comparison is with Mercedes F1 as of now.

Sorry but the financial argument for getting your own eponymous team as a manufacturer is very clear. 3/4 of manufacturers now and 100% of manufacturers in the noughties went down that path. Think why.

[carisi2k]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

[dren]

Manufacturers bought teams and went racing because they were flush with cash. Look how many left after the crash.

[makecry]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

What's wrong in it? How will they lose prestige? That Japanese Engine supplier is the largest producer of internal combustion engines on the planet and has a rich racing history and it's founder Soichiro Honda was a racer. Honda is mighty and losing to them is not going to fark up anyone's prestige.

[carisi2k]

What's wrong in it? How will they lose prestige? That Japanese Engine supplier is the largest producer of internal combustion engines on the planet and has a rich racing history and it's founder Soichiro Honda was a racer. Honda is mighty and losing to them is not going to fark up anyone's prestige.

It is for european marques and especially German ones. They are advertised here in Australia so much towards blue bloods and the snob market that losing to the common Japanese car will affect them significantly.

[santos]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

Did Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams lost prestige when Benetton won in 94 and 95? That's a nonsense.

[Talisman]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

So? That has nothing to do with my argument.

[Talisman]

What's wrong in it? How will they lose prestige? That Japanese Engine supplier is the largest producer of internal combustion engines on the planet and has a rich racing history and it's founder Soichiro Honda was a racer. Honda is mighty and losing to them is not going to fark up anyone's prestige.

It is for european marques and especially German ones. They are advertised here in Australia so much towards blue bloods and the snob market that losing to the common Japanese car will affect them significantly.

A German marque has been caught committing fraud in the US, senior management have been arrested and jailed, more will follow. That is many times worse than losing to another manufacturer in a sport few people follow.

Since then VAG has managed to bounce back up to being the biggest selling maker in the world.

Reputations are far more robust than you think.

[Zynerji]

What's wrong in it? How will they lose prestige? That Japanese Engine supplier is the largest producer of internal combustion engines on the planet and has a rich racing history and it's founder Soichiro Honda was a racer. Honda is mighty and losing to them is not going to fark up anyone's prestige.

It is for european marques and especially German ones. They are advertised here in Australia so much towards blue bloods and the snob market that losing to the common Japanese car will affect them significantly.

A German marque has been caught committing fraud in the US, senior management have been arrested and jailed, more will follow. That is many times worse than losing to another manufacturer in a sport few people follow.

Since then VAG has managed to bounce back up to being the biggest selling maker in the world.

Reputations are far more robust than you think.

I don't think it has affected VAGs rep badly because consumers intrinsically believe every company cheats on the rules of their industry. We as consumers have been cheated since time began, and we just expect it at this point.

[saviour stivala]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

What actually happened with red bull/Renault will happen again, only the engine supplier name will change "when red bull wins red bull great. when red bull lose Honda s**t".

[TwanV]

And yet if Red Bull Honda is wiping Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari's behinds in 2019 it will mean nothing. The 3 full time manufacturer teams will lose prestige for losing to a drink can manufacturer and a Japanese engine supplier. The very same thing happened when Red Bull Renault was wiping Mercedes and Ferrari's butts from 2010-13.

What actually happened with red bull/Renault will happen again, only the engine supplier name will change "when red bull wins red bull great. when red bull lose Honda s**t".

nope, Renault decreased their commitment to engine R&D before increasing it again after buying the works team and RB was powerless in the interim. I don't think that is going to be an issue with Honda.

[Wouter]

What actually happened with red bull/Renault will happen again, only the engine supplier name will change "when red bull wins red bull great. when red bull lose Honda s**t".

You also said this exactly in the General Honda topic. Why?
Do you have something against RBR?