General Honda F1 Topic

[Talisman]

Its quite easy actually. The Honda engine is smaller than the Renault in every dimension. Shouldt affect aero too much. New fuel tank... Shorter bell housing.. They will be fine.

Also RBR are currently in an odd place where they are third but with no clear challenger that could beat them to that spot despite it being relatively early on in the championship. I can see them tailing off 2018 development quite early and focusing on 2019 soon.

[Webber2011]

I think the idea that RBR has is the following:
- To win WCC again in this engine formula you need to be a works team. RBR will never be a WCC with Renault again as long as Renault has it's own team + different fuel

Same logic behind Ron's decision to switch to Honda in the very first beginning...we know what followed.
On the fuel thing, it was Red Bull's decision to have a different supplier. Made little sense, as pointed out by Toto at the time.

- Renault is not that much better than Honda at the moment on the performance side

Agreed. I would add also that the engine architecture is quite different and it will require a complete redesign of the back of the car.

- As of 2021 there are new engines and the new engines will ditch the MGU-H which is Honda's weak point.

New engine rules, possibly new manufacturers at the horizon, and we all know how RBR loves to jump ship. How would Aston Martin Red Bull Racing Tag Heuer Porsche sound like ? I know, a ratatouille. Agreed.

So with the above, why not invest 2 years time to lay a strong foundation for 2021?

Because it is only 2019 and 2020 that matter right now. Nobody can guarantee you anything beyond that. Even at Honda... If they don't deliver in 2019 and 2020, the management might even decide to pull the plug.

Remember 2013, when Ferrari ditched the whole season to prepare for 2014 ? Result: well they were pretty much abysmal in 2014. Nothing is for granted, and laying foundation and everything else is just marketing talk for the ones that don't/can't deliver at the moment. Btw, remember the 2013 Mercedes ? They finished second in the Championship and they were the ones who improved the most during that season. Yep, all that with 2014 chassis and engine rules changes on the horizon.

I surely wouldn't underestimate Red Bull, they have the data from the Torro Rosso team on the Honda engine, so I am convinced they are making a brilliant move here.

I would really rate it as far from brilliant.
For RBR it will be a challenge to integrate the new PU and they put their 3rd place in Constructors in jeopardy. In fact I'm betting Renault will grasp that 3rd place in 2019. Let's wait and see

From a marketing perspective ditching your long time partner at the eve of their home grand prix, it is not the right thing to do. They could have chosen a different date for the announcement, but they didn't.
I would not be surprised to see consequences. (how would losing Adrian Newey would sound like ? Again let's wait and see)

At last, Honda. It is the Honda topic !
Is there any other partner that can behave worse than McLaren did during those years ? You bet there is one!
It's called RBR.
They proved year after year how toxic they can be for their partners, their own team members and drivers (btw if they lose Newey, I suspect this will be the main reason for him looking to walk away).

I really hope Honda is not offering them "free engines" or sponsorship on any kind.
I'm gutted, Honda deserved better than this. Much better !

That is seriously the maddest rant I've ever seen on this forum

Why so insanely anti Red Bull Honda mate ?
It's got to be one of the greatest stories of this era in my opinion

Imagine a Honda fighting a Merc fighting a Red Car
That's heaven for me mate

[turbof1]

Some of my thoughts in this:

-First off, I can't say what the future holds. Nobody has a cristal ball. Based on the data Red Bull had, they must have serious indications that Honda either completely cleared the gap to Renault by now, or that they made such big inroads atleast that they are convinced Honda will turn out to be better by next year. Red Bull surely well have considered everything possible on that regard.

-Concerning ditching a 12 year relationship: Well, to be brunt long term relationships can fail as well. It wasn't like this is a breakup by surprise. The relationship was already tarnished. Renault and Red Bull hardly had any commercial synergies left, if any at all.

-Honda on the other hand already has strong ties with Red Bull in that other hugely popular motorsport series: Motogp. Marketing wise this further strengthening an ongoing relationship which began back in 2006.

Provided Honda effectively lifted performance levels sufficiently, this is a good deal. Even if Honda remains at the level of Renault, you still have the commercial synergies.

The only thing to worry about is how to keep Aston Martin and perhaps TAG Heuer happy.

[etusch]

I can understand Aston Martin but what is problem with tag Heuer?

[loner]

ITS OFFICIAL ITS HUGE

[AJI]

...The only thing to worry about is how to keep Aston Martin and perhaps TAG Heuer happy.

If a car has your branding on it and it's winning races then there's no reason not to be happy. Aston and TAG Heuer contribute nothing to the performance of RB, just cash for advertising. In pure sponsorship terms it doesn't get better than that.

[turbof1]

...The only thing to worry about is how to keep Aston Martin and perhaps TAG Heuer happy.

If a car has your branding on it and it's winning races then there's no reason not to be happy. Aston and TAG Heuer contribute nothing to the performance of RB, just cash for advertising. In pure sponsorship terms it doesn't get better than that.

I think that's a way too simple representation. Although TAG is probably a more simple sponsorship, Aston Martin is not as there are activities involved outside F1 and Aston Martin is a car manufacturer as well. Aston Martin is also interesting at entering F1 as an engine manufacturer if the upcoming regulations suit them. Care has to be taken not to suddenly loose out on your title sponsor and the valuable marketing that comes out of the partnership.

That being said, it can be made to work. Aston Martin, although producing their own engines, is not unfamiliar with being an engine customer for some its cars. The upcoming Valkyrie gets a cosworth engine, the DB11 had merc engines,... . A partnership between red bull, honda and aston martin to create a new car is a possibility.

[AJI]

...The only thing to worry about is how to keep Aston Martin and perhaps TAG Heuer happy.

If a car has your branding on it and it's winning races then there's no reason not to be happy. Aston and TAG Heuer contribute nothing to the performance of RB, just cash for advertising. In pure sponsorship terms it doesn't get better than that.

I think that's a way too simple representation. Although TAG is probably a more simple sponsorship, Aston Martin is not as there are activities involved outside F1 and Aston Martin is a car manufacturer as well. Aston Martin is also interesting at entering F1 as an engine manufacturer if the upcoming regulations suit them. Care has to be taken not to suddenly loose out on your title sponsor and the valuable marketing that comes out of the partnership.

That being said, it can be made to work. Aston Martin, although producing their own engines, is not unfamiliar with being an engine customer for some its cars. The upcoming Valkyrie gets a cosworth engine, the DB11 had merc engines,... . A partnership between red bull, honda and aston martin to create a new car is a possibility.

Red Bull gives you wings, and Aston Martin is on that rear wing. It's marketing pure and simple. They had Renault PU's, now they have Honda PU's What's the difference?
I think you're over analysing it.

[turbof1]

If a car has your branding on it and it's winning races then there's no reason not to be happy. Aston and TAG Heuer contribute nothing to the performance of RB, just cash for advertising. In pure sponsorship terms it doesn't get better than that.

I think that's a way too simple representation. Although TAG is probably a more simple sponsorship, Aston Martin is not as there are activities involved outside F1 and Aston Martin is a car manufacturer as well. Aston Martin is also interesting at entering F1 as an engine manufacturer if the upcoming regulations suit them. Care has to be taken not to suddenly loose out on your title sponsor and the valuable marketing that comes out of the partnership.

That being said, it can be made to work. Aston Martin, although producing their own engines, is not unfamiliar with being an engine customer for some its cars. The upcoming Valkyrie gets a cosworth engine, the DB11 had merc engines,... . A partnership between red bull, honda and aston martin to create a new car is a possibility.

Red Bull gives you wings, and Aston Martin is on that rear wing. It's marketing pure and simple. They had Renault PU's, now they have Honda PU's What's the difference?
I think you're over analysing it.

I'm not . Just to take a black and white hypothetical example: if a car was sponsored by mercedes and the team decides to take in bmw as an additional sponsor, do you think mercedes would be happy to have a direct commercial competitor on the same car? Honda and AM aren't direct commerical competitors, but are potential commercial competitors and don't have anything going between them (currently) to justify looking past that fact.

Further example: AM is looking to put high performance cars on the european market with RBR branding to appeal to a younger crowd. Honda is trying to do the same with a new sportscar they designed and also want to profit from RBR branding to appeal to the same crowd. It's not difficult to see those issues coming up.

Sponsorship isn't a case of "take my money and shut up". In the case of AM and RBR, it's a commercial and technical partnership overspanning more than just the sponsorship (as the Valkyrie project is clearly demonstrating). This will make AM atleast wary of stepping into F1 as an engine manufacturer after 2020, as they are now in direct competition with Honda vying for the 2021&beyond contract deal, even if the regulations are favourable. Red Bull will have to actively try to solve this issue else it could loose its title sponsor in the long term. If RBR manages for instance to broker a technical partnership between AM and Honda, then the situation can be solved

[AJI]

I'm not . Just to take a black and white hypothetical example: if a car was sponsored by mercedes and the team decides to take in bmw as an additional sponsor, do you think mercedes would be happy to have a direct commercial competitor on the same car?

Sponsorship isn't a case of "take my money and shut up". In the case of AM and RBR, it's a commercial partnership overspanning more than just the sponsorship. This will make AM atleast wary of stepping into F1 as an engine manufacturer after 2020, even if the regulations are favourable.

Are you actually suggesting that RB wouldn't have discussed this proposition with AM last year, say, when STR swapped to Honda..? The writing has been on the wall since then.
STR was RB's test bed for the Honda PU and they have now decided to make a firm decision. Aston will never be an F1 PU producer, even if the formula goes back to NA non-KERS V8's. It's better too be associated with a top team that is non-works, and the only option is RB.
That said, your idea of a Honda powered Aston is a distinct possibility...

[turbof1]

I'm not . Just to take a black and white hypothetical example: if a car was sponsored by mercedes and the team decides to take in bmw as an additional sponsor, do you think mercedes would be happy to have a direct commercial competitor on the same car?

Sponsorship isn't a case of "take my money and shut up". In the case of AM and RBR, it's a commercial partnership overspanning more than just the sponsorship. This will make AM atleast wary of stepping into F1 as an engine manufacturer after 2020, even if the regulations are favourable.

Are you actually suggesting that RB wouldn't have discussed this proposition with AM last year, say, when STR swapped to Honda..? The writing has been on the wall since then.
STR was RB's test bed for the Honda PU and they have now decided to make a firm decision. Aston will never be an F1 PU producer, even if the formula goes back to NA non-KERS V8's. It's better too be associated with a top team that is non-works, and the only option is RB.
That said, your idea of a Honda powered Aston is a distinct possibility...

Aston Martin publicly declared interest into becoming a PU manufacturer provided cost can be kept under control. For the record, I have some skepticism on them being competent enough because mgu-k will stay in F1 and they are basically looking at customer deals to get high performance engines (and these are just combustion engines!) for their cars, suggesting they themselves are struggling to create those, left alone the much more complicated energy recovery systems. But, AM is definitely considering an entry.

They surely will have discussed it, but there's little to decide about it until now that the decision has been made. Red Bull definitely left the door open for a different supplier in 2021. I think important for Aston Martin now is what the engine regulations will ultimately be in 2021, and from there they can work out what their technical partnership will entail with Red Bull and possibly Honda.

[rogazilla]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Honda will be paying RB for the privilege of partnering with a top team that have an excellent driver pairing. ...

That's how rumor started...

[McHonda]

Happy Honda can achieve podiums and potentially wins with Red Bull. They make the best chassis's and a huge added bonus is they have a bespoke fuel supplier Honda can work hand in hand with again which is great.

Only worry is top teams bring that extra demands on packaging and Newey is one of the most demanding. It's not an accident they get through more parts than the other Renault teams so that's my only worry.

Don't care Honda aren't in the team name and it's only two years (allegedly because of Porsche), we've been hearing about a VAG representative in F1 for years with no entry and once Honda and Red Bull are working together who knows what'll happen. Especially once the new engine rules for 2021 are finalised and Red Bull will have the ear of a supplier like Honda. That's a big thing to walk away from for a new entrant but that's a worry for another day.

[AJI]

...
They surely will have discussed it, but there's little to decide about it until now that the decision has been made. Red Bull definitely left the door open for a different supplier in 2021. I think important for Aston Martin now is what the engine regulations will ultimately be in 2021, and from there they can work out what their technical partnership will entail with Red Bull and possibly Honda.

Sure, but we're really talking about the next 2 years, and the next 2 years are only going to be the 4 current manufacturers.
Even after that I only see an opening for a VAG brand to enter if they can even be bothered. Toyota/Yamaha at a stretch... Cosworth no chance... AM or any other hypercar brand are on a hiding to nowhere. It's a shame really. Remember the 80's..?

[AJI]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Honda will be paying RB for the privilege of partnering with a top team that have an excellent driver pairing. ...

That's how rumor started...

And now seconded!