General Honda F1 Topic

[Zynerji]

Packaging offsets for aero performance, and a tailor made engine is still a benefit.

[techman]

i have no doubt honda and redbull wil start wining next season. this is the first time honda is not changing concept for 3 consecutive years. which mean more reliability and power and better understanding of the concept. honda problem was the change in concept in the 3rd year which they had to do because the first concept is a failure. it never a good idea to change concept as it will take time to gain the potential. next year more years of experience i expect to be clearly above renault

[Big Tea]

I also think that if Honda have problems, Red Bull will, lets call it "guide them in the right direction" as they tried to do with Renault.
Honda do not have to accept their "help" but sometimes just informal chats are a huge benefit to someone who loses their way mechanically.
(I have been there, a fresh suggestion, even if wrong, can un-jam the cogs)

[McG]

Bookmarked and quoted for the HAHA!

i have no doubt honda and redbull wil start wining next season. this is the first time honda is not changing concept for 3 consecutive years. which mean more reliability and power and better understanding of the concept. honda problem was the change in concept in the 3rd year which they had to do because the first concept is a failure. it never a good idea to change concept as it will take time to gain the potential. next year more years of experience i expect to be clearly above renault

And this is just hypocritical and ridiculous. McLaren offered to help Honda. Honda then refused but eventually used the same person Red Bull brought in for the Renault. Look where that got Renault... Still well behind Merc and Ferrari. So Illien doesn't have the magic Honda need. Try again.

I also think that if Honda have problems, Red Bull will, lets call it "guide them in the right direction" as they tried to do with Renault.
Honda do not have to accept their "help" but sometimes just informal chats are a huge benefit to someone who loses their way mechanically.
(I have been there, a fresh suggestion, even if wrong, can un-jam the cogs)

[hasika]

Google Translate says 'several' not 'few'

"I think now that Mercedes and Ferrari's (power unit) are nearly equal, after that it is Renault 3rd and I think that there is a Honda near there, but it is the fourth. I think that it is necessary to raise the output of several tens of kW in order to extract it. "

Let's for the sake of the argument say it's a few, that could make it around 30 to 40 kW down (or possibly more), which translates to around 40 to 50 bhp.

Not saying it's not possible, but the following do not support this:

1. Yamamoto also said that Honda is near Renault, however, I can't see how that could be the case if they were 50bhp down?

2. Earlier in the season, it was stated that Honda are give or take 10 bhp down on Renault. That would mean that Renault this year found between 70 and 80 bhp already?

3. Red Bull surely have the numbers at hand, and if they were really 50 bhp down, I doubt they would have swapped. Marko and Mateschitz have often said that they are extremely close.

4. 50bhp down on Renault would possibly mean 80 to 100 bhp down on Ferrari and Mercedes. Now unless Haas and Force India are parachutes, even with DRS, how the heck would Gasly overtake both in Canada?

5. It's been mentioned that spec2 would finally close the gap to Renault. We know that both Honda and Renault brought around 20bhp with their spec 2, Honda possibly a little bit more, so I have no idea how suddenly from closing the gap they went to a possible 50bhp deficit?

All of which make me think that the deficit he is talking about is not to Renault, but to Ferrari and Mercedes, whereas any deficit to Renault would run around 10kW max.

Excuse me for mentioning a lot of 'facts' without supporting with a links. Would take me quite longer as I would need to search for them, but if in doubt, I'll happily oblige when I have some time

His word make me confused too.
But i have to say that Yamamoto san is the motorsport boss of Honda,he manage the all motorsport of Honda,like MotoGP,Formula Ooe,Indycar,Super Formula,Super GT,WTCC.....he is not an engineer or technician.

[Talisman]

Google Translate says 'several' not 'few'

"I think now that Mercedes and Ferrari's (power unit) are nearly equal, after that it is Renault 3rd and I think that there is a Honda near there, but it is the fourth. I think that it is necessary to raise the output of several tens of kW in order to extract it. "

Let's for the sake of the argument say it's a few, that could make it around 30 to 40 kW down (or possibly more), which translates to around 40 to 50 bhp.

Not saying it's not possible, but the following do not support this:

1. Yamamoto also said that Honda is near Renault, however, I can't see how that could be the case if they were 50bhp down?

2. Earlier in the season, it was stated that Honda are give or take 10 bhp down on Renault. That would mean that Renault this year found between 70 and 80 bhp already?

3. Red Bull surely have the numbers at hand, and if they were really 50 bhp down, I doubt they would have swapped. Marko and Mateschitz have often said that they are extremely close.

4. 50bhp down on Renault would possibly mean 80 to 100 bhp down on Ferrari and Mercedes. Now unless Haas and Force India are parachutes, even with DRS, how the heck would Gasly overtake both in Canada?

5. It's been mentioned that spec2 would finally close the gap to Renault. We know that both Honda and Renault brought around 20bhp with their spec 2, Honda possibly a little bit more, so I have no idea how suddenly from closing the gap they went to a possible 50bhp deficit?

All of which make me think that the deficit he is talking about is not to Renault, but to Ferrari and Mercedes, whereas any deficit to Renault would run around 10kW max.

Excuse me for mentioning a lot of 'facts' without supporting with a links. Would take me quite longer as I would need to search for them, but if in doubt, I'll happily oblige when I have some time

I agree with you except for point 5, he specifically says that is the power increase they need to leapfrog Renault. In Japanese he says several tens of kWs, not tenths. However I don't think what we see on track supports that. Bahrain would simply not have been possible if that was the case, nor the overtakes in Canada.

If true McLaren should just give up, regularly out qualified by STRs that are 50 BHP down and developed on 2/3 their budget.

[Talisman]

Google Translate says 'several' not 'few'

"I think now that Mercedes and Ferrari's (power unit) are nearly equal, after that it is Renault 3rd and I think that there is a Honda near there, but it is the fourth. I think that it is necessary to raise the output of several tens of kW in order to extract it. "

Let's for the sake of the argument say it's a few, that could make it around 30 to 40 kW down (or possibly more), which translates to around 40 to 50 bhp.

Not saying it's not possible, but the following do not support this:

1. Yamamoto also said that Honda is near Renault, however, I can't see how that could be the case if they were 50bhp down?

2. Earlier in the season, it was stated that Honda are give or take 10 bhp down on Renault. That would mean that Renault this year found between 70 and 80 bhp already?

3. Red Bull surely have the numbers at hand, and if they were really 50 bhp down, I doubt they would have swapped. Marko and Mateschitz have often said that they are extremely close.

4. 50bhp down on Renault would possibly mean 80 to 100 bhp down on Ferrari and Mercedes. Now unless Haas and Force India are parachutes, even with DRS, how the heck would Gasly overtake both in Canada?

5. It's been mentioned that spec2 would finally close the gap to Renault. We know that both Honda and Renault brought around 20bhp with their spec 2, Honda possibly a little bit more, so I have no idea how suddenly from closing the gap they went to a possible 50bhp deficit?

All of which make me think that the deficit he is talking about is not to Renault, but to Ferrari and Mercedes, whereas any deficit to Renault would run around 10kW max.

Excuse me for mentioning a lot of 'facts' without supporting with a links. Would take me quite longer as I would need to search for them, but if in doubt, I'll happily oblige when I have some time

His word make me confused too.
But i have to say that Yamamoto san is the motorsport boss of Honda,he manage the all motorsport of Honda,like MotoGP,Formula Ooe,Indycar,Super Formula,Super GT,WTCC.....he is not an engineer or technician.

He doesn't have to be telling the truth, just as when Toto claimed that all four engines were within 3% halfway through last season.

[NL_Fer]

I think the Honda is equal to Renault in Q, but a little behind during the race, could also be caused by higher comsumption.

Seems like Honda engineers are on the right track for developing a powerful reliable powerunit, but maybe gains can be made in strategy and finetuning of the ERS if this is done in the UK or Austria on a Redbull/AVL chassis dyno.

[Talisman]

The logic is that they are still the worst engine after nearly 4 years. Anything other than than that is blind faith, which Honda fans have in abundance. Red Bull and Renault were finished a long time ago, Honda was their only choice.

You may be relying on faith, RBR had all the information they needed regarding both engines so their decision was data driven.

Honda wasn't their only choice. Renault were desperate to keep them as their highly inflated fees helped boost their research budget. If the Honda was as bad as you claim logic would dictate that a team like Red Bull would simply stay with the safe option Renault and who cares about the frosty relationship they have with the French.

[hasika]

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... pics_type=

Yasuaki Asaki's quotes about spec2,basiclly google translation and some correction.
___________________________________________

"If the situation that our engine to be behind Reanult continues, it will cause inconvenience to Toro Rosso, so we have developed it(spec2) with the intention of catching up Renault.But the internal combustion engine has a history of over 100 years,so the epochal idea will not come out one after another. "

"Development of ICE is about combustion and friction, so we were working on both of course, but this time the new SPEC are primarily combustion, but when you improve the combustion efficiency, the amount of Energy Recycled will also decrease.So we always look at the balance of the whole package,and it(spec2) is a good evolution. "

"Since the specification of the opening season is spec 1, this time it is spec 2. As only three power units that can be uesed without penalty per year, initially we planned to include spec 2 and spec 3 at the timing when we need to introduce a fresh power unit.But if the engine broken before the timing we planned and we would introduce the new power unit unexpectedly.But this time its spec 2,and there is no (spec 1.5). "

"There is no fuel update this time, no matter how many times you update the fuel, you will not get the penalty, so you do not need to follow the engine upgrade schedule, everytime when you develop something good, as soon as reliability is tested,you can introduce it (fuel). "

"It takes time to get to the top of F1, even in the 2nd period, we do F2 first and then we joined F1,we worked with Team Spirit first and it take quite a while before the result came out.Once you stop and then come back, you expect to have a better result than the last time you paused, but in fact you will actually start from zero it will take the same or longer time to do it. If you flurried, it will take your more time, so be careful not to be flurried. "

[GhostF1]

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... pics_type=

Yasuaki Asaki's quotes about spec2,basiclly google translation and some correction.
___________________________________________

"If the situation that our engine to be behind Reanult continues, it will cause inconvenience to Toro Rosso, so we have developed it(spec2) with the intention of catching up Renault.But the internal combustion engine has a history of over 100 years,so the epochal idea will not come out one after another. "

"Development of ICE is about combustion and friction, so we were working on both of course, but this time the new SPEC are primarily combustion, but when you improve the combustion efficiency, the amount of Energy Recycled will also decrease. So we always look at the balance of the whole package,and it(spec2) is a good evolution. "

"Since the specification of the opening season is spec 1, this time it is spec 2. As only three power units that can be uesed without penalty per year, initially we planned to include spec 2 and spec 3 at the timing when we need to introduce a fresh power unit.But if the engine broken before the timing we planned and we would introduce the new power unit unexpectedly.But this time its spec 2,and there is no (spec 1.5). "

"There is no fuel update this time, no matter how many times you update the fuel, you will not get the penalty, so you do not need to follow the timing when you decide to introduce a fresh engine, everytime when you develop something good, as soon as reliability is tested,you can introduce it (fuel). "

"It takes time to get to the top of F1, even in the 2nd period, we do F2 first and then we joined F1,we worked with Team Spirit first and it take quite a while before the result came out.Once you stop and then come back, you expect to have a better result than the last time you paused, but in fact you will actually start from zero it will take the same or longer time to do it. If you flurried, it will take your more time, so be careful not to be flurried. "

Not giving away much at all there. But that does put to bed rumours there was a fuel update. Combustion improvement in general then.

Just a thought, so in no way is this something I've read or heard...

So the above article, Asaki is saying Spec 2 was purely a combustion improvement, no tandem fuel update or other component. He also mentions there's a delicate balance between combustion efficiency and energy recovery (which has been hot topic of the Honda PU since 2015), of which they constantly keep an eye on.
Earlier (I think it was Franz Tost?) mentioned that the Spec 3, which Honda were now focusing on, was centred around an improvement to the ERS system, consisting of a more powerful battery and MGU-K and the store.

There are also rumours the Spec 2 has a few more unused "aggressive" modes.

Is it possible that in order to keep the ICE efficiency/ERS balanced, they have the Spec 2 ICE in a sort of "compromised state" compared to its potential to keep ERS function nominal, and when the ERS upgrade due with Spec 3 is released, the increased ERS functionality will allow further unlocking of the ICE's potential?

I'm just word vomiting thoughts on their development path. I just remember Honda's 2016 PU, they had so many turbo variants, all designed to claw back some harvesting efficiency they lost from ICE efficiency improvements.

[techman]

And this is just hypocritical and ridiculous. McLaren offered to help Honda. Honda then refused but eventually used the same person Red Bull brought in for the Renault. Look where that got Renault... Still well behind Merc and Ferrari. So Illien doesn't have the magic Honda need. Try again.

mclaren are also to blame with their high drag chassis and bad mechanical grip. its not only hondas fault. honda is working with illien for sometime, so where is the honda refused story come from? funny.
Maybe honda should have told mclaren to make a proper chassis without calling them out. Lets be honest, mclaren will hide even further in embarrassment when they see redbull beating them next year. and i hope you are ready to face it.

[makecry]

I think the Honda is equal to Renault in Q, but a little behind during the race, could also be caused by higher comsumption.

Seems like Honda engineers are on the right track for developing a powerful reliable powerunit, but maybe gains can be made in strategy and finetuning of the ERS if this is done in the UK or Austria on a Redbull/AVL chassis dyno.

HRD already has the AVL dyno. It was installed last year IIRC. They had a MCL32 shipped there early/midseason. Basically it was after that the MCL32 in general became a good-ish package in last 1/3rd or so of the season. So I am pretty sure there is a STR chassis there and that has benefited both STR and Honda.

[dren]

STR employees have been at Sakura running the full Honda-STR drive train on the dyno for quite some time.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think the Honda is equal to Renault in Q, but a little behind during the race, could also be caused by higher comsumption.

Seems like Honda engineers are on the right track for developing a powerful reliable powerunit, but maybe gains can be made in strategy and finetuning of the ERS if this is done in the UK or Austria on a Redbull/AVL chassis dyno.

The ERS tuning is best on the real track. All the teams use first practice to get the tuning just right. Remember the ERS is very interconnecting with the driver's way of driving, the track surface (braking) and wind and temperature conditions that a dyno will never get down the last percent.